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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

Please bear with me as this is my first attempt to describe a problem via this web-site.

I own a 1967 Chevy Camaro with a newly installed hide-away headlight kit. This kit appears to work fine. However, when I turn the lights on, turn the key to ignition without starting the car. I then proceed to turn a signal light on (left or right does not matter) and turn the switch for the back-up lights on, the entire car loses power. It takes about 10 to 20 seconds for the power to be restored. As it restores, a clicking can be heard. I believe I have identified this source. It is not the voltage regulator but rather a relay that is located on the other side of the windshield washer reservoir tucked up under the driver's side front quarter panel.

Also when driving, I have an electric fan and an electric fuel pump. I can have my headlights on, but when I put on my turn signal (either right or left) the car loses all power.

Now, I believe I eliminated the alternator as a possible culprit with the following test. First I hooked up the ignition directly to the battery and also the fan. I then proceeded to turn things on like I normally would. The headlights and then the turn signals. The car stayed running but the headlights and signal lights simply died.

I then reconnected everything and ran the car in park at 3,200 rpms. The car not only died but it made some horrendous sounds as it tried to restart. I WONT DO THAT AGAIN!!!!

SO I do not believe it is the alternator.

Now the car has a brand new 427 SBC chevy where it had a summit crate 350 in it before. Also, this car was not originally an RS.

I do not know if my fuse box is set-up correctly. I would like to know if there are any tests I can perform that I might eliminate other possibilities such as the radio? Are there any differences in the standard Camaro fuse box vs a RS fuse box? The hide-away headlight kit was purchased from Ground-Up. I am mentioning them only for purposes of identifying any necessary trouble-shooting requirements with their kit, additional parts that may be required for those who have purchased this kit, and also to let all of you know that this was not used.

I am attaching a picture of my fuse box )located on the left and a fuse box I believe from a Std 67 Chevy Camaro located on the right.

Any comments, suggestions, or requests for additional pictures are welcome.

Thank you for your help

 

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Don, I'd like to see a photo of your relay board. Unmount it from under the fender. There is a circuit breaker on that board. It has orange and red wires on it. I wonder if anything else is tapped off of this breaker.
Sounds like you have a dead short somewhere south of this when the blinker comes on...

by the way, what part of CT?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I live in Middlebury CT. Thanks for your help and I will try to get you that photo. P.S. where are you from? I will be at the show at Naugatuck H.S. on Saturday.:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hello and thanks for your request.

I now have the photos, please look at them and provide any feedback or if necessary and you require additional pictures or a picture highlighting a specific detail please let me know.




In the above picture, the green wires to the left are not attached to this circuit. Also, I could not find a ground. Could you tell me where the ground wire is, if I am missing it or rather if its is just that I do not see it.


This is a picture look at the top circuit in better detail and the bottom picture is just zooming in on the bottom of the first picture.:yes:

 

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Discussion Starter #6
One other minor detail, I bought the motor and it has a single wire alternator in it. There are some wires currently taped up that would go to this alternator. I have been told that these wires should not be affecting this system:yes:
 

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Don that looks OK as far as I can tell but compare the wiring at the relays to this link from Retro electro. Then you should be able to rule out this board. http://www.retro-electro.net/FAQ.html
It doesn't matter which is relay#1,2,3 since they are all the same. Just the wiring matters.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hey thanks for your help!!!

I am going to replace the RS circuit breaker. It is possible that my problem is with this. Also, I was wondering, do any of the relays require a ground? Lastly, the RS diode may be bad, is there a way of testing this or should it just be replaced?

Again...THANK YOU!!!

Don

:beers:
 

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Don, It looks like all your components on the relay board are new so I don't suspect the circuit breaker. Even if it is tripping, that's what it's supposed to do if the current draw is too high. The question is why...To test, You could run the car, make the problem happen, then see if the breaker has tripped using a test light.

Another test, I would disconnect one side of that breaker and insulate the wire with electrical tape. That should effectively kill power to the headlight motor system. Then see if your problem persists. I don't really think the RS headlight system is causing the car to die when you put the blinker on. Just trying to isolate the problem.

I don't know an easy way to test the diode. Failed diodes usually short(instead of open) I think. I can email you a schematic of the system. R3 black wire should be grounded.

If everything works OK until you put the blinker on, that's a big clue. Any blinker? Pull the bulbs and see if it still happens. I think something is miswired somewhere. Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you again,

I agree with you and all this stuff is new. However, I was not sure if I have a defective part. Also, if you could send me a schematic, my email is [email protected]

I have spent over 40 hours trouble-shooting this problem and I may take the car somewhere. IF you have any pictures as to how the diode is actually set-up they would be greatly appreciated.

Again any help would be great!!!

Thanks

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It is any blinker,

I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. Lastly, I turn on a turn signal (does not matter if it is the right or left) and POWER GOES OUT!!!

I repeat this process, I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. Lastly, I turn onback-up light switch and POWER GOES OUT!!!

Occasionally, in order to trip the system initially (when the car has been sitting still for a long period of time with no headlights, blinkers, or reverse lights on), I sometimes have to do this process, I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. I turn on a turn signal (does not matter if it is the right or left). Lastly, I turn onback-up light switch and POWER GOES OUT!!!

I also have discovered that the order does not matter, there is something overloading the system. The back-up lights are also still the original standard system in back only the switch is new.

I can have the back-up lights on by themselves and there is no problem. I can have the signal lights on by themselves and there is no problem. I can have the hide-away-headlights on by themselves and there is no problem.

Again thanks for your help!!!
 

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FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine appart, I'm going to make one!!!

Where does the fan relay get it's power? I assume you relocated your front turn signals. Do they have a good ground? Did you have to make extensions to power them? Where does your fuel pump get power? Do you use a relay for it? The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :p
 

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Discussion Starter #14
FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine apart, I'm going to make one!!!
LOL, So do I

Where does the fan relay get it's power?
It gets it power from a separate regulator fed directly off the battery, I then have a single line feeding to the ignition. I have identified earlier as to why I believe this is not a problem. However, if I am wrong about my earlier assessments please let me know.

I assume you relocated your front turn signals.
Yes the ones in front were re-located
Do they have a good ground?
I have only assumed that they have a good ground. I had someone else install them.
Did you have to make extensions to power them?
Not that I am aware of.
Where does your fuel pump get power?
The fuel pump
was installed when I purchased the car and when it had a standard headlight kit, this was never a problem. The engine blew-up and so I bought a new engine and installed this headlight kit before I even had the engine. The kit was purchased before the engine blew up. Now I believe the fuel pump is wired directly to the battery.

Do you use a relay for it?
No, I have a separate regulator for it.
The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?
No this particular set-up is entirely new and was installed as a necessity for the Cheetah shifter does not allow for placement of both a lock-out and reverse light sensors. I went with the lock-out and had this switch set-up fabricated by the same people who installed the hide-away headlight kit.

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :p
LOL, hence why I had paid someone to do this!!! Beginning to regret that decision!!!
:beers:
 

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FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine apart, I'm going to make one!!!
LOL, So do I

Where does the fan relay get it's power?
It gets it power from a separate regulator fed directly off the battery, I then have a single line feeding to the ignition. I have identified earlier as to why I believe this is not a problem. However, if I am wrong about my earlier assessments please let me know.

I assume you relocated your front turn signals.
Yes the ones in front were re-located
Do they have a good ground?
I have only assumed that they have a good ground. I had someone else install them.
Did you have to make extensions to power them?
Not that I am aware of.
Where does your fuel pump get power?
The fuel pump was installed when I purchased the car and when it had a standard headlight kit, this was never a problem. The engine blew-up and so I bought a new engine and installed this headlight kit before I even had the engine. The kit was purchased before the engine blew up. Now I believe the fuel pump is wired directly to the battery.

Do you use a relay for it?
No, I have a separate regulator for it.
The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?
No this particular set-up is entirely new and was installed as a necessity for the Cheetah shifter does not allow for placement of both a lock-out and reverse light sensors. I went with the lock-out and had this switch set-up fabricated by the same people who installed the hide-away headlight kit.

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :p
LOL, hence why I had paid someone to do this!!! Beginning to regret that decision!!!
:beers:

OK... You probably won't like this, but why not just take the car back to the person who did the work and make them fix it? They should stand by their work! :eek:

Anywho, I was asking about all those connections (fan, pump, etc.) to see if the circuits may have been using the same source and overloading the circuit. I mean, you do say the whole car dies! I don't know of any circuit breakers in the system (other than one added for hidden lights). There may be one. I don't see it in the schematics. Maybe there's one in the updated alternator? I only really know of fusable links. And those don't come back to life... :p

As far as the fuel pump, some people like to use a relay for it. It just keeps the "high" amp stuff out from under your dash...

Hmmm, the back up switch... For '68, it's on the same circuit (from factory) as the turn signals. Now that I check a '67 diagram, the power seems separate!

My guess is something in the new back up circuit. But that wouldn't explain the circuit breaker in your headlight system tripping unless there was a common circuit there, as well... Plus, the signals trip it, too. Wonder how they power the back up circuit if not using original wiring (light green and pink wires under the dash for '67?).

Which brings up another guess. I wonder if the stop/limit switches on the headlight covers are set correctly? MAYBE if the motors are running w/o being kicked off, that current draw plus one additional thing is enough to trip the circuit breaker??? :confused:

THEN, there are grounds!!!

Meh... Honestly, I would talk to the installers. They need to fix it for you. You can just show them repeatedly the failure mode. So, they can't deny it... :noway:

Tough one!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
OK... You probably won't like this, but why not just take the car back to the person who did the work and make them fix it?
I agree with you and for the past 6 weeks I have been working with them trying things out, but I have reached my limit and told them that on Monday I am bringing the car back
They should stand by their work! :eek:

Anywho, I was asking about all those connections (fan, pump, etc.) to see if the circuits may have been using the same source and overloading the circuit. I mean, you do say the whole car dies!
That is true but I know that when I run the fan the fuel pump the radio and the headlights the car stays on. If I run the fan the fuel pump the radio and use my turn signals the car stays on. When I eliminated the fan and ignition from the car and ran the headlights with the turn signal the car runs but only those electronics die and this is true without even running the car that I can repeat this same problem by just running any two out of three of the following combination's: headlights + turn signals, headlights plus reverse lights, turn signal plus reverse lights. motor is off radio is off fan is off fuel pump is off. Also one neat negative effect, lets say I have my headlights on, I turn the left blinker on, the blinker eventually locks up lit up while the headlights start to go dim! Then the power in the car goes dead.

I don't know of any circuit breakers in the system (other than one added for hidden lights).
I do not believe there is
There may be one. I don't see it in the schematics. Maybe there's one in the updated alternator? I only really know of fusable links. And those don't come back to life... :p

As far as the fuel pump, some people like to use a relay for it. It just keeps the "high" amp stuff out from under your dash...
True but do not believe this to be the current problem but definitely something to consider in the future.

Hmmm, the back up switch... For '68, it's on the same circuit (from factory) as the turn signals. Now that I check a '67 diagram, the power seems separate!

I believe it is but again the only wiring done on this is the manual switch. The reverse lights have not been updated to the RS reverse lights. The installer said he didn't believe this to be a problem.

My guess is something in the new back up circuit. But that wouldn't explain the circuit breaker in your headlight system tripping unless there was a common circuit there, as well... Plus, the signals trip it, too. Wonder how they power the back up circuit if not using original wiring (light green and pink wires under the dash for '67?).
I will have to look into this.

Which brings up another guess. I wonder if the stop/limit switches on the headlight covers are set correctly?
I believe they are, the motors are working fine and do stop, I hear them shut off. Also, opening and closing them is not a problem. Now to work the headlights, I pull on the headlight lever half-way. Press the high beam floor button and pull the headlight lever the rest of the way. Half-way the headlights activate all the way and the doors open.
MAYBE if the motors are running w/o being kicked off, that current draw plus one additional thing is enough to trip the circuit breaker??? :confused:
As stated above I do not believe this to be the problem.

THEN, there are grounds!!!
Most likely culprit. I did notice that the signal ground wire which is located on the driver side signal (left blinker) did not have the paint scrapped away but was simply attached via a self-tapping screw. I scrapped away some paint and even went as far as to attach grounds from each signal light bracket to the body ground on the car.

Meh... Honestly, I would talk to the installers. They need to fix it for you. You can just show them repeatedly the failure mode. So, they can't deny it... :noway:

Oh they do know, believe me, that there is a problem but they have been asking me to try and fix it and after more time being spent by me trying to troubleshoot and fix the problem via phone conversations with them, than it took them to do the install, I am bringing them the car on Monday even though they told me they are not ready or able to see it on Monday.

Tough one!!! __________________
:beers: '68 SS Camaro w/ a '66 427/425 25 year project and counting! :thumbsup:

Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted. Also, if you think of anything else please let me know.
 

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OK... You probably won't like this, but why not just take the car back to the person who did the work and make them fix it?
I agree with you and for the past 6 weeks I have been working with them trying things out, but I have reached my limit and told them that on Monday I am bringing the car back
Good for you!!! :hurray:
They should stand by their work!

Anywho, I was asking about all those connections (fan, pump, etc.) to see if the circuits may have been using the same source and overloading the circuit. I mean, you do say the whole car dies!
That is true but I know that when I run the fan the fuel pump the radio and the headlights the car stays on. If I run the fan the fuel pump the radio and use my turn signals the car stays on. When I eliminated the fan and ignition from the car and ran the headlights with the turn signal the car runs but only those electronics die and this is true without even running the car that I can repeat this same problem by just running any two out of three of the following combination's: headlights + turn signals, headlights plus reverse lights, turn signal plus reverse lights. motor is off radio is off fan is off fuel pump is off. Also one neat negative effect, lets say I have my headlights on, I turn the left blinker on, the blinker eventually locks up lit up while the headlights start to go dim! Then the power in the car goes dead.
Yah, I really think there is some short or a bad ground. Since it is pretty much isolated to what that shop installed, head light system and reverse lights, I would say it was their mistake.

I don't know of any circuit breakers in the system (other than one added for hidden lights).
I do not believe there is
There may be one. I don't see it in the schematics. Maybe there's one in the updated alternator? I only really know of fusable links. And those don't come back to life...

As far as the fuel pump, some people like to use a relay for it. It just keeps the "high" amp stuff out from under your dash...
True but do not believe this to be the current problem but definitely something to consider in the future.
Right, that is how I meant it. As a suggestion. I don't think my car ever had a relay in the pump circuit. But I will add one when I pull it all appart for paint. It's been fine for 30 years. So, I'm hoping it will be OK for a few years longer... ;)

Hmmm, the back up switch... For '68, it's on the same circuit (from factory) as the turn signals. Now that I check a '67 diagram, the power seems separate!

I believe it is but again the only wiring done on this is the manual switch. The reverse lights have not been updated to the RS reverse lights. The installer said he didn't believe this to be a problem.
If it's not a problem, why can you cause a failure by just using the turn signal and reverse lights? We'll see if he's correct or not.

My guess is something in the new back up circuit. But that wouldn't explain the circuit breaker in your headlight system tripping unless there was a common circuit there, as well... Plus, the signals trip it, too. Wonder how they power the back up circuit if not using original wiring (light green and pink wires under the dash for '67?).
I will have to look into this.

Which brings up another guess. I wonder if the stop/limit switches on the headlight covers are set correctly?
I believe they are, the motors are working fine and do stop, I hear them shut off. Also, opening and closing them is not a problem.
Cool. :thumbsup:

Now to work the headlights, I pull on the headlight lever half-way. Press the high beam floor button and pull the headlight lever the rest of the way. Half-way the headlights activate all the way and the doors open.
Wow... :confused: The high beam switch is involved, too? I never knew that about update RS kits... I'd love to have the instructions and schematics for the system. Most websites have them for download. I should check them out.

MAYBE if the motors are running w/o being kicked off, that current draw plus one additional thing is enough to trip the circuit breaker??? :confused:
As stated above I do not believe this to be the problem.

THEN, there are grounds!!!
Most likely culprit. I did notice that the signal ground wire which is located on the driver side signal (left blinker) did not have the paint scrapped away but was simply attached via a self-tapping screw. I scrapped away some paint and even went as far as to attach grounds from each signal light bracket to the body ground on the car.
Cool. Yah, the way the power kind of runs down in that one fail mode you described above is an indicator of a rapid battery drain. That is either a short or some kind of feedback from a bad ground. Usually. Hmmm, how's your battery? :p Again, I wish I had a schematic. Also, a schematic for the single wire alternator...

Meh... Honestly, I would talk to the installers. They need to fix it for you. You can just show them repeatedly the failure mode. So, they can't deny it... :noway:

Oh they do know, believe me, that there is a problem but they have been asking me to try and fix it and after more time being spent by me trying to troubleshoot and fix the problem via phone conversations with them, than it took them to do the install, I am bringing them the car on Monday even though they told me they are not ready or able to see it on Monday.
Again, good for you! :thumbsup: Making you fix it is kind of business, if you ask me...

Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted. Also, if you think of anything else please let me know.
I would have to sit down w/ the schematics and know how they wired the reverse lights. So far, it's just been spit balling... :D
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Just an update on this fiasco...

It turns out the hide-away headlight kit...does not include a complete kit. A diode harness was not included and no mention of it in the kit was made. Also, no mention of a needed front valance, front signal lights, harness, gaskets for signal lights, hardware, etc were mentioned in this kit. I would like to post the kit I purchased and the other parts necessary for installing a complete hide-away headlight kit. I also would like to add the disclaimer that this is for a specific kit offered through a particular company. I am not bad mouthing the company nor have I mentioned their name but if I was to post this kit and all the additional materials I would want to mention that company. This list would include everything that you would need but if your car had any of these parts that you would not want to replace than you would need to omit those from your order. Let me know if this is something you think would be good to post. The most frustrating thing when doing the work is finding out that a kit is really not a complete kit...perhaps there should be disclaimers to this fact!!!

Seriously annoyed but not unhappy!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I purchased a separate valance piece for the turn signals. The RS doors open just fine, but the diode wire had to be purchased separately. However, I am still having trouble with the back-up lights shutting the car off. I am now looking at the ignition wires. I will also be re-wiring for the back-up lights. Oh and the kit for that, it does not include the harness...IN-F-ING-CREDIBLE!!! So frustrating, but I am slowly making progress...I just can't believe all the work done on this car and I have spent well over 200 hours troubleshooting this issue.

I still want to get my headers done....RIDICULOUS!!!!
 
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