[Joe G]

Anyone using SC&C's adjustable upper control arm and tall ball joints? They look like they would work pretty well for better camber curves and adjustablility for camber/caster. I was contemplating the GS mod wehen I came across these.

http://www.scandc.com/suspensions.htm

joe

 

[RickD]

I have it but don't have any road experience yet. Mark is very helpful if you call and will explain everything.

 

[JimM]

I'm also in the process of installing SC&C adjustable upper control arms.
I didn't go with the tall ball joints, as my car all ready has the guldstrand mod.

The a-arms are very nice peices, smooth, solid, and light.

 

[Mark SC&C]

They`re great for adjusting caster and camber,no shims and no compromises. Arms (ours or anyones) don`t really have any effect on the camber curves (despite what some would have you believe). They can only alter static alignment. You have to make vertical changes like the G Mod or taller ball joints or spindles to effect serious geometry improvements. We have several Stages of packages,some that work well with the G Mod,others that work even better without it. Mark SC&C

 

[Joe G]

Thanks guys. They look like they would work well. I am concerned about the added leverage and stresses on the tall ball joints. It's a street car that gets driven a lot (Pretty hard, too). Am I just being paranoid?
I like the concept very well, just concerned about reliability.
Would going taller joints top and bottom be the best approach? It would seem the taller bottom joints might help bump steer issues a bit..

joe

 

[Mark SC&C]

Joe, the Precision Series ball joints were engineered from the start to take the taller studs and to tolerate forces far in excess of stock ball joints. For a little extra overkill our Severe Duty X Tall upper ball joints use a stud larger in dia. than many lower ball joints and a shoulder that registers on the top of the spindle for extra support. The high strength steel alloys,CNC machined and fully heat treated construction make them all many times stronger than OE ball joints. That was one reason they were designed in the first place,many types of racing up to an including NASCAR require "stock type ball joints". Stock joints would sometimes fail in a racing environment (which is almost always bad at 200mph!) and the teams all wanted something more precise and a lot more durable. NASCAR teams are the biggest users,we`re second. They hold up really well on the street too. The caps are O ring sealed against dirt and moisture and we provide nice snug fitting poly boots for them. We have some with over 50,000 hard street miles on them (rough Pa. roads, rain,snow etc.) that still show no measurable wear. Even the low friction coating on the pivot balls is still intact! I don`t know how many miles it`ll take to wear as set of them out but I`m betting it`s something over 200,000. At that point you can take advantage of their built in lash adjustment and adjust them for some more miles. If you wear them to the point where that`s not enough (NY taxi?) the pivot balls are heat treated to a more ductile state than the housings so you can simply remove the studs (without removing the whole balljoint) and replace it with a new one and start all over again. :thumbsup:
On most GM muscle cars tall upper and lower ball joints of specific heights ARE a huge help and can correct most of the factory bumpsteer. 1st Gens are the exception to the rule with their rear steer setup. Taller lower ball joints would help the suspension geometry but they would increase the bumpsteer by almost double. They needs to move in the opposite direction. For that we offer tall tie rod ends in our Stage 2 package. Mark SC&C

 

[Joe G]

Thanks for the detailed information Mark. Especially correcting my assumption on bump steer corrections.
If I understand it correctly, to get the taller spindle length and the bumpsteer correction, I would need both the upper and lower tall ball joints AND the taller tie rod ends? Or would I just need the taller upper joint and tie rod ends?

I guess I am looking for a better camber curve than stock and without going all out and breaking the bank. I know the GS mod is "free" but have heard it also can cause some header clearance issues. Not sure how accurate my drilling would be either.....

If you have time I have a couple of more questions. How much does the taller upper ball joint lengthen the spindle? Will it affect camber change about the same as the GS mod? Or does the GS mod change other geometry as well? Are there any binding issues with the taller spindle length? My car is lowered about 2 1/2-3". I am running Carreara coilovers for adjustablility.

Currently I run about -1 1/4° camber. I would like to get to about -1/2° or so for tire wear concerns. With a better camber curve I could do that.


Thanks for your help.
joe

 

[Mark SC&C]

That would be tall upper ball joints only and tall tie rod ends (Stage 2 package). We`ve got a number of different options ranging from slightly milder than the G Mod to somewhat more aggressive than the G Mod to full race geometry with combinations of tall ball joints,tall ball joints and the G Mod or tall AFX spindles. No binding issues at all when used with our adj. upper arms (one big reason we prefer to sell them in packages with matched components).
Carreras are great,I was really sad when QA1 bought them out and gutted their product line,especially their computer adj. magna ride shocks...idiots.
You`re spot on! With a proper negative camber curve you can achieve the same performance with street friendly alignment specs that you would with poorer geometry and race alignment specs. To say nothign of the higher roll center reducing body roll and the roll center being MUCH more stable laterally which makes the car much more predictable and easier to drive fast. If you like feel free to give me a call,it can be hard to cover this much ground one short post at a time. Mark SC&C

 

[69 Ghost]

Mark I have a Guild mod front with GW upper arms, del-alum bushings, would I benefit with taller tie rod ends? I don't know if the GW have a taller ball joint or not so the assumption is that it is OK. I am strictly a street guy but I like my handling.

 

[Joe G]

Thank you very much for your detailed explainations, Mark. I will take you up on your offer and call. It can get a bit long here, although it is great info to share with the other Camaro folks.

joe

 

[Mark SC&C]

Eric, the GW arms do not use tall ball joint. All of your geometry gain is coming from the G mod and static alignment settings. The tall tie rod ends improve the factory bumpsteer considerably. If you`ve looked at David Pozzi`s site you`ve probably seen the old SCCA TransAm mod of heating and bending (scary!) the steering arms down 1/2" to improve the bumpsteer. The tall tie rod ends do exactly the same thing without messing with the metallurgy and heat treat of your steering arms. Here`s a pic. http://www.scandc.com/balljoints.htm Just bolt them on,add longer tie rod adj. tubes (our tie rod ends are shorter than stock) and you`re good to go.
BTW we also offer a more race oriented version which uses a 3" tall threaded stud with jam nut and broached allen hole at the end. You drill and tap the steering arm 5/8x16 and thread it in. Then those folks who have a bumpsteer gauge can dial the bumpsteer out almost perfectly. Unlike spacer systems that use heims this setup doesn`t need to be taken apart to adjust it,the adj. aren`t limited by the height of the shim tubes and they`re fully sealed,greasable joints. Neat stuff!

Joe,you`re right it is nice to get info out for folks to see and use. I don`t mind taking the time to do long posts at all but it`s still not as good as 1 on 1 for some things. Mark SC&C

 

[67RSSS]

Hello all

i would be interested in hearing what SC&C uca packages members have purchased? Stage one, Stage 2 , stage 2 plus? Have you elected to go with the greasable race bushings or have you chosen the high durometer bushings? How many have chosen the aluminium arms as a upgrade and how many have gone with the 1/2 in bolt upgrade? Any changes you would have made in regards to upgrade purchases in hindsight?

Chris.