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Discussion Starter #1


Look at the end of the graph. What is going on there? Looks like scribbling. Was told its probably timing and or fuel(smells rich).

So I'm asking the experts, where do I start? I can post a full list of all known mods and parts if you guys think it will help.

541ci V8 block (IA-II by Butler Performance)
Roland Racing CV-1 heads fully ported
Roland Racing (high rise) intake
Harland Sharp aluminum roller rockers
Ultra Dyne Racing Cams custom cam
--duration at .050 intake:270 exhaust :280
Duration at .020 301 314
Gross valve lift .710 (both)
Lobe lift .4176 (both
Oliver Racing Connecting Rods
Holly Dominator 1150 Carb
K&N filter and Xstream lid
March Performance Pulleys serpentine system
Be Cool Aluminum radiator with dual electric fans
MSD Digital Ignition system with Digital 6 Plus control box
MSD Coil (matches the Digital 6 Plus)
PQx flexplate
Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump
Aeromotive adjustable fuel pressure regulator

PS:
Turbo 400 performance build with 3500 RPM stall convertor(see trans section for post about low numbers because of the stall?) http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2625425#post2625425
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Any chance your MSD chip preventing you from going higher? Lots of good stuff here.
The MSD rev limit is 6600, just looked at the digital 6 box and here are the settings, since you probably can't see in the pic:
6. 9. 9. 3. 0. 6. 4.


(Step retard is 9.9, RPM 2 Step Rev Lim is 30(3000), rpm max rev lim is 66 (
(6600)

Retard seems a little extreme, wondring if it it's as never changed after blower was removed(or if maybe Nitrous was on after the blower was removed)
 

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WoT is a rich mixture anyway.....do u have the O2 /rpms graph numbers?
This will tell u if it is timing, a miss in the timing or very excessive mixtures
The break down starts about the 5300/ 5400 rpms.
The suggestions above, or maybe as simple as a Spark plug or HT lead....someone has pulled a HT lead off by the lead, that once, or dropped a spark plug on the ground...and not thrown it away.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
WoT is a rich mixture anyway.....do u have the O2 /rpms graph numbers?
This will tell u if it is timing, a miss in the timing or very excessive mixtures
The break down starts about the 5300/ 5400 rpms.
The suggestions above, or maybe as simple as a Spark plug or HT lead....someone has pulled a HT lead off by the lead, that once, or dropped a spark plug on the ground...and not thrown it away.
There are A/F ratio number on the bottom of the graph. That's all I have, I'm not sure where where they put the sensors.

I recently checked the plugs, and a terminal came off the wire and stayed on the plug. I had to pull the boot and crimp it back, on the wire, is that what your talking about? It still idled and ran fine on the street after that.


Here is a video, sadly hit the record button a little late, but I got most of the run.

1967 Firebird 541 V8 Dyno Pull: http://youtu.be/Xt_-wAXVcDM
 

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Discussion Starter #7
What diameter pushrods are in the engine?
The invoice I have just has a PN, which is for " Custom" reverse dome pistons. If you search the PN on butler it says the same thing.

But the piston rings have a size:
4.380


I asking on another site also, was given a new set of settings for my Digital 6 box, he said what I said, 9.9 retard doesn't seem right with no blower, probably leftover from the blower and never changed.

I have put them in and going for a drive soon
 

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There are A/F ratio number on the bottom of the graph. That's all I have, I'm not sure where where they put the sensors.

I recently checked the plugs, and a terminal came off the wire and stayed on the plug. I had to pull the boot and crimp it back, on the wire, is that what your talking about? It still idled and ran fine on the street after that.


Here is a video, sadly hit the record button a little late, but I got most of the run.

1967 Firebird 541 V8 Dyno Pull: http://youtu.be/Xt_-wAXVcDM
Change that wire and try it. Inner core may be damaged
 

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Chris was asking about the pushrods, not the stuff about the pistons. Maybe call Butler. I would also ask them what valve springs are in it.

I think starting with a check of that one plug wire (and maybe all of them) is in order first.

So what is the history of this engine? Was previously setup for a blower?

What is the current static compression ratio? I know the camshaft may have been changed to compensate around that. Just curious.
 

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The invoice I have just has a PN, which is for " Custom" reverse dome pistons. If you search the PN on butler it says the same thing.

But the piston rings have a size:
4.380


I asking on another site also, was given a new set of settings for my Digital 6 box, he said what I said, 9.9 retard doesn't seem right with no blower, probably leftover from the blower and never changed.

I have put them in and going for a drive soon
What is the PN on your invoice about the pushrods or do you know the size and type ? I am guessing 5/16" and 1.625 valve springs?

Butler is into Pontiac motors, Is this a Ponticac? Did they provide a dyno sheet with this motor or did you buy pieces?
 

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What is the PN on your invoice about the pushrods or do you know the size and type ? I am guessing 5/16" and 1.625 valve springs?

Butler is into Pontiac motors, Is this a Ponticac? Did they provide a dyno sheet with this motor or did you buy pieces?
The engine is installed in a 67 Firebird
 

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The engine is installed in a 67 Firebird
Yes, we know what motor is in. But is this a Pontiac bb or a chev bb?

OK, I just woke up , This is a Pontiac motor and CV-1 are canted valve heads by BP. Sorry my ignorance.
 

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Yes, we know what motor is in. But is this a Pontiac bb or a chev bb?

OK, I just woke up , This is a Pontiac motor and CV-1 are canted valve heads by BP. Sorry my ignorance.
:beers:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yes, we know what motor is in. But is this a Pontiac bb or a chev bb?

OK, I just woke up , This is a Pontiac motor and CV-1 are canted valve heads by BP. Sorry my ignorance.
Nope, CV-1 are by Roland Racing. Butler uses Edelbrock heads on their engine packages.


Valve springs are 1.530", 7/16" Titanium Retainers

Do ng cups are 1.680" OD, .577" ----1.550" spring OD.

Give me a few minutes. Found another receipt in the stack I didn't really notice before. I'm sitting them and will out up pics shortly.

Edit: just found a order sheet also, stapled in some instructions for the block.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Here is everything, and what I just "found" in the instructions










 

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Back to the AFR readings....I can only just make them out and I THINK they all say 14.7x ??
If that is the case then the AFR O2 sensors have not been hooked up becuase u should be getting a rich AFR...and if 14.7x all the way doesnt work that way

And If u have the SLIGHTEST misfire then the AFR will richen around 0.5 or more

Personally I recon this is a dud dyno run, not connected up right, maybe not even things like ambient temps barometric pressure dialed etc in and hasnt been checked serviced for yonks
As u get up around the big hp (or 5300) the dyno starts to 'fall apart'

Bottom line.. far too many dynos and dyno operators fall well short of even basic min professionalism.

A experienced dyno techy will know straight way something is wrong....and what, and in this case I recon the dyno and operator are faulty... or the MSD unit is the problem.
 

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OK, I presume 3/8" push rods as I see 3/8" guide plates and I would think that for these springs, they would be enough .

But , I am thinking in line of a BBC , those spring Id's look small , you do have some big spring cups, 1.680"? so I am thinking along the lines of springs too small and that may be where the motor is fluttering at 5700?

I don't know much about Pontiacs or their heads but I do know if you don't control the valves and keep them from bouncing off their seats or keeping the roller lifter in contact with the lobe, you will have problems. As I mentioned, on my 468 motor, I ran 1.625 triple springs on a .700 cam. I did run 3/8" push rods.

I would also be interested in seeing what kind of valve seat pressures you are running but since they set up the heads, they may know or should. Maybe Pontiac heads are different from BBC. I see the word Blower on the invoice.

Just thinking here. I would make attempt to show Butler your chassis dyno sheet and see what they think.
You got some good stuff here.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
OK, I presume 3/8" push rods as I see 3/8" guide plates and I would think that for these springs, they would be enough .

But , I am thinking in line of a BBC , those spring Id's look small , you do have some big spring cups, 1.680"? so I am thinking along the lines of springs too small and that may be where the motor is fluttering at 5700?

I don't know much about Pontiacs or their heads but I do know if you don't control the valves and keep them from bouncing off their seats or keeping the roller lifter in contact with the lobe, you will have problems. As I mentioned, on my 468 motor, I ran 1.625 triple springs on a .700 cam. I did run 3/8" push rods.

I would also be interested in seeing what kind of valve seat pressures you are running but since they set up the heads, they may know or should. Maybe Pontiac heads are different from BBC. I see the word Blower on the invoice.

Just thinking here. I would make attempt to show Butler your chassis dyno sheet and see what they think.
You got some good stuff here.
Having problems finding them on Lunati's site, but found this info on the springs(on an ebay auction), the PN is hand written on the sheet, they are called "pro rev", so you would think....:

PN 74021 PRO REV
1.550 ROLLER
THESE ARE 225LBS @ 1.950 AND 660LBS @ 1.250 MAX LIFT .750

Here is the info from their 2002 catalog. look at page 194
http://www.hivolume.info/catalogs/Lunati_2002.pdf

Pro Rev Steel Dual Spring Sets
Lunati Pro Rev Valve Springs are the ultimate in performance
valve springs. The material used in the Pro Rev can handle 15%
higher stress with the same durability as other springs. We also
have specialized certification on the raw material to ensure con -
tinued quality on each run of springs. Statistical Process Control
is used in manufacturing to ensure minimum interference fit
along with proper sizing of the spring. Cycle fatigue testing is
done on each lot of springs along with all springs being 100%
checked for rate.
 

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OK, I was having problems also. So looks like you have lots of spring pressure here , like I said, I know beans about Pontiac but this still looks like too small of a spring for a big motor like this.
I was with a friend that has a 540 Shaffioff motor and it had larger springs so , I was just comparing .
Maybe Mr. Straub will chime in, He is the cam expert here.

Steptoe has a point also about the chassis dyno also.
 

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Here's a article on another Pontiac build from PHR using cv-1 heads.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0906phr_roland_racing_cylinder_heads_pontiac_block/viewall.html

I'm no expert on Pontiac`s, small blocks are more down my alley but I`m leaning towards pushrods or valve springs. There seems to be a lack of stability as you`re reaching the higher rpm`s.
I had a problem with my small block at higher rpm`s, turned out to be plugs. Try a fresh set but do some research first on the right ones and some wires, its worth a try without breaking the bank.

Lastly.....not trying to knock your Dyno guy but his speciality seems to be tuners. Here`s a quote from his website: We also work on all imports such as Evo’s, Infiniti G35′s, Mitsubishi Eclipse’s, Dodge Neon, Supras, etc. If you have it, we can make it better!

Maybe a call to your head supplier, Roland Racing or Butler Perf. give them all the specs, they`re the specialist with Pontiac`s, Good luck!
 
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