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T56 Information - First Generation Camaro Swap

283K views 237 replies 89 participants last post by  SoCal805 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
There are so many questions from folks about how to do this swap, I thought I'd post up a little "primer" I did. The post will be in two parts. All recommendations are solely my own. Any corrections or comments are welcome

The Principal Choices of Swappable T56’s

There are three T56’s that are generally used in first generation Camaros. T56’s that were in an LS1 equipped GM car (Camaro or Firebird – not a Corvette) these are referred to as “LS1 T56’s”; T56’s that were in LT1 equipped GM cars (Camaros and Firebirds) these are referred to as “LT1 T56’s”; and so-called Aftermarket T56’s that were intended by Tremec and GM as service replacements for T5’s that broke behind (I think) TPI SBC’s, these are referred to as “Aftermarket T56’s.” The Aftermarket T56’s came with an adapter plate very much like the McLeod 8207 kit referred to below, except that the adapter plate was drilled to correct for the 17 degree tilt built in to the T5 bellhousings. If you get a new Aftermarket T56, you’ll have to have the plate redrilled, or get yourself a T5 bellhousing.

The LS1 T56's generally and many LT1 T56’s have a 0.5:1 overdrive sixth gear and a 2.66:1 first gear with an overall gear spread of 2.66-1st, 1.78-2nd, 1.30-3rd, 1.00-4th, 0.74-5th and 0.50-6th,. Some of the very early LT1 T56's, the Aftermarket T56 and a few other more exotic T56's have a 0.62:1 sixth gear and a 2.97:1 first gear with an overall gear spread of 2.97-1st, 2.07-2nd, 1.43- 3rd, 1.00-4th, 0.80-5th and 0.62-6th. The splits between the gears for the LS1 T56 are: 0.67 1-2, 0.73 2-3, 0.77 3-4, 0.74 4-6, 0.68 5-6. The splits between the gears for a 2.97 first gear T56 are: 0.70 1-2, 0.69 2-3, 0.70 3-4, 0.80 4-6, 0.78 5-6.

Because of the steep overdrive 6th gear in an LS1 T56, a car with a radical cam will need a rear gear at the higher end of the range. By way of example, given a 26.6” tall rear tire and an LS1 T56, a car with 4.11 gears will be turning about 1560 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 77 mph at 2,000 RPM. A similar car with 3.55 gears will be turning about 1350 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 89mph at 2,000 RPM. Yet another similar car with 3.08 gears will be turning about 1170 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 103 mph at 2,000 RPM (if the engine makes enough torque).

The equivalent numbers for a similar car equipped with a T56 with a 0.62:1 6th gear are: 4.11 gears will be turning about 1930 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 62 mph at 2,000 RPM; 3.55 gears will be turning about 1670 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 72mph at 2,000 RPM; and 3.08 gears will be turning about 1450 RPM at 60mph, and will go about 82 mph at 2,000 RPM.


Finally, the 2.97:1 first gear T56’s are generally rated by Tremec for 400Ft-Lbs of torque. The 2.66:1 first gear T56’s are generally rated by Tremec for 450Ft-Lbs of torque or more. Both are, based on abuse stories, pretty conservative ratings.

You can tell the difference between an LS1 T56 and an LT1 T56 three ways:

(1) The LT1 T56 has the slave cylinder mounted on the bellhousing and the cylinder pushes the outside end of the clutch fork toward the front of the car. The LS1 T56 has a hydraulic throwout bearing that bolts to the front of the transmission and is concentric with the input shaft.

(2) The LT1 T56 has a clutch fork pivot ball on the front of the transmission. The LS1 T56 has no provision for a clutch fork pivot ball.

(3) The LT1 T56 input shaft is about 5" long from the face of the transmission (where it's bolted to the bellhousing) to the end of the input shaft. The LS1 T56 input shaft (measured the same way) is about 6.5" long.

The best way to determine the gear set in an LT1 T56 is to put it in first gear and count number of input shaft revolutions required for one full revolution of the output shaft.


(The Aftermarket T56 has an input shaft that is 7” from the face of the transmission to the end of the input shaft and doesn’t come with a bellhousing; the Viper T56 has an input shaft that is also about 7” from the face of the transmission to the end of the input shaft and has no provision for a clutch fork pivot ball.)
 
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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
Second part:

Swapping an LS1 T56

If you’re starting from scratch and already have a 3 or 4 speed manual transmission in the car, the easiest and cleanest way to swap a T56 into a first generation Camaro behind a traditional BBC/SBC is as follows: You will need an LS1 T56, the McLeod adapter kit (1/2” thick adapter plate that goes between the transmission and the bellhousing, extended pilot bushing, and “collar” on which the throwout bearing rides – McLeod Part No. 8-207 available, for example, at http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MCL%2D8%2D207&N=700+400374+4294812239+4294856873+115&autoview=sku), a transmission cross member (I like the ATS adjustable crossmember available at http://www.t56kit.com/main.html), a shortened balanced driveshaft (which you can have made up locally), and an electronic speedometer or an electronic to mechanical converter such as Cable X (available at http://www.gaugeguys.com/cablex.htm, among others).

Using these parts you reuse your current bellhousing, clutch setup (swapping in a 26 spline disk if required), throwout fork, throwout bearing and mechanical clutch linkage. I also prefer an all heim joint linkage such as the one available from http://www.speeddirect.com/index.aspx?nodeID=34.

If you are converting from an automatic, you will also need a bellhousing or scattershield for a SBC/BBC, a flywheel, clutch and 26 spline clutch disk for a traditional SBC/BBC, clutch pedal, clutch linkage (upper rod, Z bar, and lower linkage (or just buy the Z bar and purchase the heim joint kit referred to above), throwout fork, throwout fork pivot ball and throwout bearing. All of these factory style linkage parts should be available from your preferred restoration part vendor.

I prefer a mechanical clutch linkage, particularly for an LS1 T56, because troubleshooting and correcting clutch engagement/disengagement problems with the factory hydraulic linkage generally requires that you uninstall the roughly 130 pound LS1 T56 to get to the concentric throwout bearing, make whatever correction you think is needed, reinstall the transmission, test again and then go through the uninstall/correction/reinstall sequence until the problem is solved. Call me lazy, but that doesn’t sound like fun.

If you want to use the factory hydraulic linkage with either the LS1 or LT1 T56, I suggest you simply use the ATS kit available at http://www.t56kit.com/main.html. The ATS kits use the factory hydraulic linkages and the factory bellhousings.

Weir Hot Rod Products also makes conversion kits for LS1 or LT1 T56’s (http://www.weirhotrodproducts.com/index.html) which use Weir’s cast aluminum bellhousing and hydraulic linkages (which use a concentric hydraulic throwout bearing for both transmissions), but which, in my opinion, aren’t as polished as the ATS kits. (Compare the Weir cross member to the ATS piece.)

Finally McLeod (whose adapter kit is mentioned above) also makes a “modular” bellhousing which is a hydroformed steel bellhousing that uses spacer rings of various thicknesses and transmission mounting plates to adapt a variety of transmissions to a variety of engines. (If you’re doing anything other than a T56 behind a GM engine, talk to McLeod.) In addition, McLeod makes front “intermediate” plates for T56’s that incorporate a clutch fork pivot for adapting an LS1/Viper T56 to a mechanical clutch setup without the use of the adapter plate kit. A modular bellhousing and McLeod front “intermediate” plate locates the transmission roughly 0.75” closer to the engine, increases the effective amount of space in the transmission tunnel (because the transmission is farther forward) and makes the installation cleaner, simpler but more expensive.

Swapping an LT1 T56

If you already have an LT1 T56, your swap is a bit more involved (and likely costly). As described above, the LT1 T56 has a fairly short input shaft which, because of limited space between the transmission and the engine block, requires the use of a special “pull” style clutch and a special flywheel designed to accept the “pull” style clutch. (Here’s a picture of the clutch just by way of example http://www.clutchcityonline.com/images/04-134.JPG) You can’t use any "standard" Chevy flywheel and, unless you have a one piece rear main seal crankshaft, you also can't use the factory LT1 flywheel. In addition, the LT1 T6 uses a hydraulic linkage with a slave cylinder external to the bellhousing, which is also “one-off” for the LT1. So if you’re going to install an LT1 T56, make sure you get the bellhousing, the clutch (if it’s in good shape) and the hydraulic linkage.

Once you have the basic parts you have four choices: (1) You can use the ATS kit, (2) you can use the Weir kit, (3) you can contact McLeod’s tech line to see if either the adapter kit mentioned above with a more extended pilot bushing or one of their modular bellhousings will work, or (4) if you have a 2.66:1 first gear LT1 T56, you can swap out the input shaft for an LS1 T56 input shaft and go to the section above. (You can also swap the Viper T56 input shaft for an LS1 T56 input shaft to simplify installation of a Viper T56 behind a SBC/BBC LSx engine.) If you swap input shafts, be aware that the input shaft must be correctly shimmed on a T56, so it would be best to have an experienced transmission technician do the job.


Interior Details

With any of the mounting methods used you’ll need to cut a new hole in the transmission tunnel for the shifter handle and you’ll need a shift boot sealing the floor of the car to the outside air. The LS1 T56 and LT1 T56’s move the shifter back the most, the Viper T56 less and the Aftermarket T56 the least. However, all of them require a new hole for the shift lever at least 4” or so back from the factory location. (The shifter location itself, however, is fine with any of them.) If you have a console, it will have to be moved back, or you’ll have to try something like the McLeod “Slik Stix” shifter, and you’ll need to come up with a shifter to console boot of some kind.

Finally, you’ll need to either replace your factory speedometer with an electronic speedometer (more involved than it sounds because you lose things like turn signal indicators, etc. when the speedometer is removed – probably best done if you’re planning on going to replacement instruments), or an electronic to mechanical adapter like the Cable X.

Other T56s

The Viper T56 has the same gear ratios as the LS1 T56, but is supposed to have a higher torque rating. The Viper has an 8.25” input shaft, which would make swapping it into a first generation Camaro a bit tighter, as the farther back in the transmission tunnel you go, the narrower it gets. As mentioned above, you can swap input shafts with one from an LS1 T56, and solve the input shaft issue. Viper T56’s have a different speedometer connection than an LS1 T56 and a different shifter configuration, although a shifter meant for a 2003-2004 Ford Cobra T56 will work on the Viper T56.

The gear ratios for the T56s used in the GTO and Cadillac CT-V are - 2.97-1st, 2.07-2nd, 1.43- 3rd, 1.00-4th, 0.84-5th and 0.57-6th. The gear ratios for the T56’s used in the 2005 SSR were 3.01-1 st,2.07-2nd, 1.43- 3rd, 1.00-4th, 0.84-5th and 0.57-6th. I would expect (but have not personally confirmed) they both have the same input shaft length as the LS1 T56.
 
#3 ·
Excellent write up Mike! Thanks a lot for taking the time to post this, it will definitely help some folks here, and I'm sure it will help me in the near future - I am pretty sure I'll be putting a T56 back in mine and it's cool to see my options on gearing.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the kind comments. This, like my dislike of concentric hydraulic throwout bearings, was born of laziness. Now, instead of typing lengthy answers, I can simply post the URL of this thread. :)
 
#9 ·
Mike,

Another great post!! Thanks one more time for all of the help!! My swap is nearly complete after one days hard work!! All thats left is to have my driveshaft shortened (4 3/4" if my math is correct!!) and balanced and to R&R the whole thing one more time so that I can weld up the old shifter hole in the floor. (I've also gotta get a new front carpet b/c the new shifter hole is 5" behind the massive cut out I made for my 4spds Super Shifter!)

I have a little more information to add:

1) For anybody doing this swap it is important to note that the input shaft length on the LS1, T-56, as measured from the front of the adapter plate to the end of the shaft, is only about 6" as compared to 6.625" for the Muncie. While the input shaft will make it thru the clutch disc, it is not long enough to slip into the stock pilot bushing in the end of the crankshaft.

2) McLeod offers many different length, extended pilot bushings to correct this problem. It's still not clear to me if the adapter was supposed to come with this part, but mine did not. After a long discussion with the McLeod's tech line, they are going to send me P/N 8-1094-4 which is 0.600" longer than stock. This might be a bit too long but, I have access to a lathe and can turn the bushing down a bit if needed. In the words of Lee at McLeod; "It's better to have excess and not need it than to need it and not have it!" :D

3) Once I have the correct bushing length, I'll get the corresponding part number and post it on this thread. If anyone knows this number already, please let me know!!

This swap really isn't all that hard assuming you have a great set of tools and quite a bit of practice at modifying cars. Also remember that this mod will add about 50 lbs to the middle of your car! The T-56 is one heavy SOB at 129 lbs and the adapter plate must add another 10 lbs. The Muncie is well under 100 lbs with the shifter!! Be careful lifting this beast into the car!!

Paul D.
 
#16 ·
More info and a correction that may be useful.

After dealing with hundreds of chassis customers that are using T56 trans, we have found there is more than three different types of T56's in regard to the rear mount location. We have identified four different types, and there are more out there. So, when purchasing a mount for your T56, be prepared to do some fabrication.

Transmission to floor clearance Jim is pretty tight, but it fits without hitting. The shifter is righter where your hand would be if you dropped it from the steering wheel to the tunnel. Because it is more rearward than a Muncie, you will need to use a stick that is straight up instead of curved.
 
#17 ·
Thanks Matt, But would you happen to have a measurement? I have a 67 Rs and purchased a 68 console kit, and found out the shifter location is different. The 67 being more forward, I beleive. Can you relocate the counsole around the shift without it looking goofy? I you can get me a measurement on diiference in distance from the stock 67 to T56 or the stock 68 to T56, would be great.

Thanks Jim
 
#18 ·
You can indeed move the console around without really noticing.

The question I have to ask you is what T56 do you have? There are several different models with different shifter locations. The two things I need from you are:

Measurement from back of engine block (or bellhousing mating surface) to trans mount centerline, and-
Year, make, and model from the vehicle it came from

Get back to me with these and hopefully I can help.
 
#23 · (Edited)
What about the McLeod SlickStix (sp?) shifter? Don't they make one for the T56 that relocates it, like in the TKOs? Has anyone used one?
McLeod sells a SlikStix shifter that mounts in the standard T56 location and, by means of offset arms, relocates the shifter handle wherever (within reason) you want it. It would likely solve console relocation issues, but you'll still have to make a hole for shifter access about 6" back from the factory 4-speed hole.

McLeod doesn't sell a forward mounted SlikStix shifter, but Red Roberts (who used to own Mcleod) does under the corporate name "Driveline Components." Installation requires removal and modification (drilling and shortening, IIRC) of the shift rail, which Red recommends be done by an experienced transmission technician. In addition, you need to know what offset (side to side and front to rear) you want on the shifter when you order it; so plan on mocking up first. The shifter is about $300, plus if you don't do it yourself, the cost of removing, modifying and reinstalling the shift rail. The forward mounted SlikStix shifter should come up in the stock 4 speed shifter access hole in a first generation F body, and also solves the console relocation issue.

I'm installing a Viper T56 in my '68 project car, with the McLeod Modular bellhousing, swapped in LS1 T56 input shaft, swapped front intermediate plate (for the mechanical clutch linkage) and plan on going this route for the shifter, but it doesn't appear to be too easy (or cheap) an install.
 
#22 ·
I don't have a T56 yet. From what vehicle should I be looking for? 98 and up LS1 Camaro/Firebird ? I was going to go with the TKO 5spd, but am now considering the T56 with a adapter plate for the muncie bell housing with mechanical linkage. The TKO with correct shifter will put me in the stock location. I am not very concerned with the crossmember, just the shifter location.

Thanks
 
#24 ·
I don't think anyone has given a measurement yet so:

The stock shifter location on my '99 Camaro T-56 is 5" behind that on my Muncie with a high mounted Hurst Super Shifter. My car was originally equipped with an automatic, so I had to cut the hole and modify the tunnel for the huge Hurst/Muncie combo. I think that this shifter was designed to fit near the loacation of the stock '68's shifter???

Honestly, I like the location of the T-56 shifter. I'm fairly short (5'7") and always felt like I had to reach for the straight handle on the Muncie. With the T-56, my arm can pretty much rest on the trans tunnel to shift!!
 
#25 ·
Keisler's now sells the T56 6-speed kit for the first gen Camaros. It is supposed to be a bolt-in without cutting the tranny tunnel or anything.
http://www.keislerauto.com/gm/transmissions/camaro_67-69_6spd.asp Does anyone have any experience with their kit? How does their cost of $4,300 compare with doing it yourself?
 
#26 ·
Keisler's now sells the T56 6-speed kit for the first gen Camaros. It is supposed to be a bolt-in without cutting the tranny tunnel or anything.
Why don't you call and ask them how they do a bolt in T56 that doesn't require any cutting of the transmission tunnel and let us know?
 
#29 ·
An LS T56 in a first gen camaro is tricky if you are trying to achieve stock console location. The stock shifter location for a 68-69 Camaro is at about 23.5" back from where the bell meets the engine block. The rear most shifter position for the LS T56 is about 29" back from where the bell meets the block. The further forward shifter location on the LS T56 is approximately 19.5" back from the engine block. So you have three choices:
1) Mount a Slik Stix shifter from Red (Driveline Components) in the rear most location with the longest forward offset avaialble (I think it is 4") - this wil get you close to stock location.
2) Mount a slik stix in the further forward location and choose a rearward offset as far as possible. This may not be the best choice as you will need to remove the tailshaft and cut the shifter rail in order to install the shifter. This equals extra $$ to have this done.
3) Move you console to wherever the T56 positions the shifter. This is easiest and least expensive. I think this can be done without having the console too goofy.
In my view, if you intend to install a 6 speed, you should go into it understanding that you will need to do some mods/customization - there is nothing wrong with this. It is all about personal preference.

If stock console location is important to you, install a TKO 5-speed and you will get all the overdrive you need as well as stock console location.

I have a car with an LS T56 and a LS motor and I have a car with a carburated small blcok and a TKO. Both of them are fun and both give plenty of overdrive.

In my view the 6-speeds are best suited for guys running LS motors that were made to operate with a 6-speed trans with a deep overdrive, guys who are truely road racing their cars at high speeds (80 mph +) and need a better 4th-5th gear shift than a 5-speed can offer, or guys that would just like to say they have 6 gears instead of 5. Any of these reasons are valid reasons.


If you have any further specific questions or need specific measurements feel free to call.


You can use a slik stix shifter from Mcleod
 
#34 · (Edited)
I have found some measurements on another site, are as follows:


Shifter Location & Center Consoles
The dead center of the stock 4-speed shifter hole in the floorboard of a 68-69 Camaro happens to be 17 3/8” back and from where the transmission mounts to the bellhousing. Also, the hole is offset to the driver’s side by ¾” from the centerline of the tunnel. 1967 models have the same offset from center (3/4”) but the center of the stock hole is 1 ¼” further forward when compared to the ‘68-69 models. In other words the center of the hole for the ’67 is 16 1/8” back from where the transmission attaches to the bellhousing. So with info provided by mike, the T56 would measure in at 21 5/8" ( 4 1/4 back on the 68,69 & 5 1/2 on the 67 )

When using the stock Tremec shifter, that is included with the transmission, the shifter stub will not be exactly “dead center” in your stock console but it will be very close. By simply unbolting the stock shifter, rotating it around 180*, and then re-installing it on the transmission, you will position the shifter 16.75” back from the front of the transmission. With slight modifications to the floorboard and to the plastic shift tunnel piece (the piece that extends from your console shift plate down to your carpet) this position will work for 67-69 Camaros. These modifications are relatively minor and are effectively undetectable.
 
#36 ·
I have found some measurements on another site, are as follows:

When using the stock Tremec shifter, that is included with the transmission, the shifter stub will not be exactly “dead center” in your stock console but it will be very close. By simply unbolting the stock shifter, rotating it around 180*, and then re-installing it on the transmission, you will position the shifter 16.75” back from the front of the transmission. With slight modifications to the floorboard and to the plastic shift tunnel piece (the piece that extends from your console shift plate down to your carpet) this position will work for 67-69 Camaros. These modifications are relatively minor and are effectively undetectable.
Please note this information concerning the location of the shifter in relation to the stock hole in the first generation F-body relates to the Tremec TKO (and its relatives), NOT the T56 that is the subject of this thread. If you install a T56 expect to cut a new hole for shifter access.


The dimensions on the locations of the stock shifter holes are useful. The center of the forward access plate on the Viper T56 that's in my shop is 13" from the front of the transmission and dead center. Because (SFAIK) all T56's share a common main case, this measurement will hold true for other T56's as well. If this forward access point were used for a shifter, and assuming the McLeod adapter kit were used, the center of the shifter would be 13.5 inches from the rear of the bellhousing and dead center in the transmission tunnel. That's about 3" too far forward. The stock shifter location point on my Viper T56 (which is about the same as the Aftermarket T56 and several inches forward of the LS1/LT1 T56 shifter mounting point) is 20" from the rear of the bellhousing. Thats about 3" too far back. FWIW, the mating surface between the tail shaft and the main case on the T56 about 15.25" from the front of the T56 (15.75" if using the McLeod adapter kit), making any custom tailshaft relocating the shifter for use with the stock shifter hole in a first generation F-body an interesting engineering problem.
 
#40 ·
I'm certainly happy I found this site (my 3rd posting). Knowledegable individuals with a good exchange of information and ideas. Many thanks to everyone.

There isn't a problem with a .5, 6th gear in the correct application. The problem is, I don't believe my 302 engine can't pull me down the interstate at 2,100 RPM at 75 MPH. That is due to the lack of torque and not the .5 gearing. The lack of torque is common with the Z/28 302 motors, but it makes up for it in other ways. I actually have to slip the clutch a little to get me Z moving even with the 4.56. I need the LS1 with 2.66 first gear and not the 2.97 that would be wayyyy to deep. Another option could be a milder cam to boost torque, but may hurt my high end RPM.

My next step is to see if RS Gear will upgrade Keisler's T56, if I indeed can't pull down at 2100 RPM. If this mod can happen a later date, then it seems like the best thing to do is purchase the Keisler package and install it and cross my fingers that it will pull OK. If not, I can always upgrade if needed later.

My car is complete, running and I want to install some type of OD before summer. Many thanks again for listening (reading) and your input!!!
More to follow! What is there to do on a cold winters night is IOWA?
gman48
 
#44 ·
Check out this website- http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0405_tough_t56_transmission/index.html

This is a copy of the article that Chevy Hi-Performance ran several years back on the making a tougher T56 by Rockland Standard Gear (RS Gear). One of the small pic's showed a side view of a T56 with what appeared to have the shifter location slide all the way forward on tail housing. Upon enlarging, I found more pic's and one with a close up of the two different tail housing. Don't say what there for, but they do exist.
gman48
 
#45 ·
Upon enlarging, I found more pic's and one with a close up of the two different tail housing. Don't say what there for, but they do exist.
If it's the picture of the two tail housings, side by side, the tailhousing with the shifter closer to the botton of the picture is a standard Viper tailhousing, which puts the center of the shifter 20" from the rear of the bellhousing.
 
#46 ·
So how about putting a T56 behind a pontiac block?

i would think that if they both take the same muncie, then the same T56 should work, right?

the only issue i cant get past is that the adapter plate is only listed for chevy sb
but i cant think of any reason why it would not be listed for a pontiac block or even a chevy big block
 
#47 ·
So how about putting a T56 behind a pontiac block?

i would think that if they both take the same muncie, then the same T56 should work, right?

the only issue i cant get past is that the adapter plate is only listed for chevy sb
but i cant think of any reason why it would not be listed for a pontiac block or even a chevy big block
I agree that it should work, with the one reservation that I'm not sure what the pilot bushing dimensions are for Pontiac engines. If they take "Chevy" pilot bushings, then the McLeod extended pilot bushings would work too.

To play it safe, you might want to call McLeod or ATS and pick their brains.
 
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