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dr. scott

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ive gotton the toeboards out finnally which was a bigger pain than it looked. i want to rust kill and seal the panel under the toe board where the cage nuts are for the subframe bolts. i thought por at first but i have to weld the toe boards to the panel. will the heat and the weld destroy the por? would it be better to sand blast and cover with weld thru primer?
thanks
 
You don't want to breath the weld thru primer fumes either! They contain zinc I have to say, much more dangerous than that tree sap POR is made out of.
 
Tree sap that POR is made out of? What do you know that I don't know? I have always wondered what this stuff was made from. E-mail me if you can't post here.

Joe
 
Well, I happen to know a guy who is pretty savvy on chemistry and products such as this (he owns a company who makes and markets auto paint, primers and clears) who has confirmed that one of the main ingredients of POR is resin from a "soft pine tree."

I asked on another forum if anyone knew anything about POR's chemistry. I was curious after opening my first can of clear POR how much it smelled and looked like regular old varnish I put on my wood shop projects back in junior high. One of the regulars on this forum whom I trust told me that he had a truck driving friend who use to deliver truck loads of this resin to the POR company.

I asked the paint company owner and he confirmed it.

The one time in the POR advertising that they don't lie is when they say "It is not Paint, it is POR".
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Hey if 'tree sap' preserved that Dyno-DNA used in Jurasic Park for a 'bijillion-years' - think how long our cars will last... ;)


ps: Brian, I haven't forgotten, just busy as can be with Applied Materials stuff (don't you hate it when work get's in the way?). Will drop off some gifts from 'santa' before the end of the year.

John
 
So Martinsr, I take it your don't like the POR products? Don't know just a guess. From reading posts over the years you seem to know loads about paint and paint products. I think there is another paint called Rust Bullet. What is your opinion on these type of products? I have used a very small amout of POR 15 one time and good luck with it and it was easy to use, but would you recomend other ways to do say a subframe and have it be as durrable as powder coating?
Powder coat has chiped when I used on an ATV frame before but not as much as paint. I can not say how POR holds up to this same abuse. I plan to do something with my subframe and would like better results than the rattle can of chassis black that gets stone chips and looks nasty in less than a year.

Thanks for you opinion
Joe
 
POR advertises itself as a moisture cured polyurethane. Definitions I found elsewhere are
"Polyurethanes are complex molecular chains that, when formed, tend to retain their shape, flexibility and resilience under stress, tension or compression"
Meaning of POLYURETHANE
Pronunciation: `pâlee'yûru`theyn


WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] any of various polymers containing the urethane radical; a wide variety of synthetic forms are made and used as adhesives or plastics or paints or rubber


So is POR a synthetic plastic?
 
Only a "portion" of it would have to be to put the name "Polyurethane" on the label. If you added some polyurethane resin to after shave you could then put on the after shave label "polyurethane".

Listen, I have read until I am blue in the face about POR and simplar products like ZeroRust. I have searched and searched to find all info I can. All I find is some mind blowing marketing, MIND BLOWING marketing. I recently tried to find a real test, head to head test on the web. One that put POR against etch primers, epoxy primers and other excepted forms of rust prevention. A test that would show POR against sandblasting and proper protection from industry standards like epoxy and a SS urethane. I found nothing. Now, if you search using "POR TEST RUST" or a number of other search words such as "salt spray POR objective". All I get is page after page, thousands of sites from POR distributors or POR themselves, or competitive products similar like Zero RUST. I want to see a REAL test, not one done by people with an agenda.

I must admit this site had some great info, that appears to be well documented. Click here

I don't disagree that there are places for POR and the like. For instance, you have a floor that is pretty rusted with rust between layers of metal that would take major surgery to repair. If you don't have the time, money, skills, repro parts to invest in that particular car, use POR.

However, to use it, believing all the hype of the advertizing and some "testimonials" from guys who have put it on their trunk floor and the rust didn't reappear (notice I said "reappear" being it never really left so I can't say "come back")is not the way to go.

To use it on something like a frame that has been sandblasted where you could have used etch primer,epoxy and a SS urethane semigloss black paint (all with no sanding between by the way, wham bamn done in an afternoon) (Joe, there is your answer) like every pro I have ever known would do, seems foolish.

I have said it over and over, go to any fleet of trucks, COKE,UPS, WALMART, they have MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars invested. They have no products like POR on them. Go to a company who maintains equipment like blades and tracklayers, they don't use anything like POR on them (none that I have seen). Go to paint companies who have systems for these fleets, BILLIONS of dollars in paint sold every year with MULTI BILLIONS of dollars of warrantees backing the paint, no POR like products there.

PPG,DuPont, S-W could buy the POR company with what they spend on tissues in the executive rest room. If POR and the like were that great they would have been bought up long ago and copied or relabeled.

All the advertising of these products looks just like diet pill advertising. No proof, no REAL tests, just claims. They promise you results with no work, the American dream.

Go to any restoration shop, ask them if they use it. Go to any pro, any pro who does this stuff for a living and backs his work.

Like I said, there is a place for it. If you choose to use it for what ever reason, that's cool, you have the choice. I just like to point out to all who will listen what I know, so they will have some more info to make that choice.
 
SR Martin, while I absolutely respect you as a professional in your field, and have no doubt that the way you would deal with rust the best way, fact is, for many of us, mixing up some paint and loading the spray gun, and shooting great clouds of isocyanate leaden poison in our attached garages next to the wife's new SUV and kids baseball equipment is a very big deal. It is not something that can or should be done every time a coating needs to be applied to a peice of metal.

For many of us, a product that works, that leaves a smooth attractive, long lasting finish, in minutes, with no tools other than a disposable paint brush, is an extremely attractive option.

As for how long por will last, and if the rust will reappear? Who knows? Five long years ago, I wire brushed the loose rust off the rear third of my car, including the wheelwells and under the gas tank, and por'ed it in an hour, the wife's suv sitting next to it in the garage. There is zero deterioration today. Not a single rockchip in the wheelwell, not a sign of rust, not even a lessening of the gloss.

por15 works for me.
 
Like I said Jim, I understand. I am only giving information on the subject. I use to be NAZI crazy against POR, but I have softened. I understand the attraction.

It is like when I talk about using plastic filler properly and I have some guy say you are a hack if you use "bondo". He has the skills to metal finish everything,he makes fenders from scratch, he is a talented guy. Not everyone can do that, I don't think telling someone not to use a "short cut" is right. It is all relative.

It's like my "new" car. A friend of mine asked if I wanted to buy his late moms 95 Ford Taurus SHO. This thing is mint, the nicest car I have ever owned (without restoring it). Anyway, he commented that his wife was driving it to work and that it was her "hoopty car". Her other car is a 2002 Z06 Vette. Well, I got it and now this SHO is MY Z06 Vette. It is all relative. One mans hoopty is another mans Vette.

I know how difficult it is to get something painted in the garage, believe me I know. I much rather see you with your car on the road with some POR on it with your smiling face behind the wheel than it in the garage because you can't find the time to paint it with the iso laden poison cloud.
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Just as long as you know what you are working with. I just can't stand the HYPE that's all.
 
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The stuff for sure ain't magic, but it seems to be effective. I wish I had my own shop (unshared with the rest of the family) and a properly ventilated spray both and the $10,000 or so worth or tools to make it minimally effective, butI can't, and even if I could, I wouldn't, not to do one car, once every 20 years or so.

While it would be nice to take it to a pro and have it done right (and i may still elect to do that with the exterior paint job) I really want to do it myself, as much as I possibly can.

But mostly, come next spring, I want, no NEED to be cruisin down that road, with the top down, and the flow's singing, and a big ole smile on my face!

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How did we get into a por debate in a thread about prepping the hidden side when replacing metal?
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oh, and btw Martin, I've posted before, thanking the working pro's who donate thier expertise to us on this site. You're one of them, and I thank you.

(I do computers for a living, and wouldn't dream of spending my evenings on a computer related forum. It sure must be sweet to love your work, and work with what you love!)
 
Originally posted by MARTINSR:
paint it with the iso laden poison cloud.
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POR is a "iso-laden poison cloud"!

Brian, I'm glad you've softened from your Nazi anti-POR ways! ;) I remember a few years ago how you'd be sitting back laughing at everyone that brought up the subject.

POR paints maybe be snake oil. I used it for two reasons, well... maybe three. Like Jim says, I can't spray in my garage without major preparation and gassing my family out of the house. Another reason is the ease of use. Buy a couple foam brushes, follow the directions and paint away! The third reason was because I wanted something on the underside of the car - ie: suspension - that won't get chipped and have to be repainted every year. Powder coating chips, paint chips. Properly applied POR might dent, but I haven't been able to damage it down to the metal like you would easily be able to do with a primer\paint combination. Just look how easy it is to damage the paint on your modern car.... to the point of seeing the primer or even the sheetmetal.

That's the only reason I used the POR paints underneath. Who knows, a few years from now it may all fall off.

**I want to apologize to Dr. Scott for this thread being hijacked. Sorry man! Didn't mean to get off on this POR tangent!**
 
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