Barn on the farm, Vent fan install,

buzzworth · Aug 21, 2008

Jim.......if you are going to stick with the circuit as 20A, then be sure to use #12 wire.

ss

click · Aug 21, 2008

Will do, I need to have some around anyway for other future projects. I will pick up a box of it, 100'.
thanks

Everett#2390 · Aug 22, 2008

After seeing the fan, my thoughts are these:
1. Dual voltage - go for the higher voltage - less current loss in the power lines.
2. Weight of the unit itself - looks heavy, over 25 lbs., more important, the heavy motor hanging off the end, extra lever. Pick up the fan by the top two holes and watch it acquire the angled line - fan end points up. Now, push on the bottom to level it out. This force will be needed for the life of the mounted fan, meaning the 2X4 shown in the proposed picture may bow outward over the years. Sheet metal doesn't support as well as intended.

If I were to mount the fan and chose the same spot as you, I would suspend it from the rafters straight up with a minimum of two 5/16" turnbuckles in a straight line from the top rafters. Then, use two longer turnbuckles for the bottom holes attached in a straight line to the rafters to pull the fan back to keep the vent straight with the proposed wall. Then caulk as planned for enviromental purposes.

By suspending the fan, the vibration from the fan is not transferred to the neighboring structure, but absorbed by the suspension.

But then, maybe I'm over-engineering the install. The manf of the fan suggests?

Nantooch · Aug 22, 2008

Jim,

You have fun with that install but do be careful! One thing to keep in mind. .Generally speaking, the garage door opener is on its own circuit.

Vintage 68 · Aug 22, 2008

Lets see if I can get that drawing to post you aksed for

Okay, it would pretty much be that ...

I think you asked earlier (if I can remember what I read through a min ago :sad: ) if the switch would 'turn off the fan also' ???
Not unless the Thermo-control was set to a setting that also didn't turn it on ...
So - if the thermo is calling for the fan to run, and you switch off the fan override, it will still run until the temp setting you had is satisfied and the thermo shuts it off.
On the other hand, the fan will be controlled by the switch anytime the thermo is not calling for it to run.
Is that as clear as mud now

It does not matter that the fan is getting it's input power from two different sources at the same time if it happens - they are still 'phased' the same and will not 'short'.
My attic fan is wired this way so I can turn it on 'manually' if I want. I also have a small pilot light wired into the circuit so I can see it's in 'manual' when I walk by later ...
I have wired several fan assemblies like this before and they all work fine.
You would still have to isolate the circuit via the breaker if you needed to service the fan or the controls - or to shut the unit down completely in not needed seasons.

Hope this helps;
John

pdq67 · Aug 22, 2008

You can turn a cheap all steel rip blade around backwards in a Skillsaw and it makes it into a sheetmetal burn through blade! Works GREAT, at least try it on a junk piece of sheetmetal on your sawhorses before you decide to NOT do it this way!

Cutting sheetmetal doesn't get any faster/easier by me. Handle the Skillsaw like you are push-cutting butcher paper w/ a pair of sharp scissors and just that fast!!

pdq67

click · Aug 22, 2008

I can follow that

thanks John...
now another question, Ev mentioned it and yes it has optional settings for 210v but that darn thing has such small wires inside and I need to add 'tabs' on the end of my wires to plug into the tabs inside. How the heck does 12guage wire fit in there and then have tabs on the ends or can I use smaller wires coming out of the unit and then into an elec. box to connect to 12 guage wires externally, so I dont break off any of the tabs on that circuit board inside? Would the switch need to be different if I used 210 and how would that change the wiring from breaker to switch to thermo to motor? I can manually do the wire stuff, its the setup that gets me nervous.
Ev. I also know what you mean about weight, it does tend to want to pull down but keep in mind, the 2x4 frame Im building will all be screwed from the outside of the barn, thru the siding into the 2x4's which should make that a very sturdy box to bolt the unit up against. On the inside the 2x4's will have 4" deck screws holding them against the other truss boards, as well as I will use some 1x3's on the connection areas much like the steel pieces that hold the truss connections together.
worst case I could also support the motor itself from down below on the garage door header too. You can see the motor's support in the pic that would mount to a floor unit if you wanted. I can brace to that if I need too.

click · Aug 22, 2008

woohooo

just got off phone with tech support of the fan manufacturer, in Eau Clair Wisc....
He said I can run my 12guage from breaker to switch then to an elec. box 4-5' from the fan, then use 14guage stranded wire from the elec. box to the thermostat and then 14guage stranded from there to the motor. I dont have to run 12guage solid wire all the way into this tiny compartment and fear breaking off the tabs or cracking the circuit board

that helps alot. takes away the fear.
Now to figure out the thermostat wiring in a 220v application.?

Everett#2390 · Aug 22, 2008

Thermostat will run either voltage from the same terminals.
Ground (green) wire to center terminal with ground symbol (earth).
Bring a supply power wire, preferredly black, from power dist box and connect to "C" terminal, common terminal.
Output black wire to fan motor to "COOL" terminal, the leftmost.
Wire nut the two white wires from power dist box and to fan motor.

At fan motor, hook up both power wires, black & white, as shown on motor plate for HIGH voltage, as John's schematic shows.

Reads like the support factor has taken care of itself.

click · Aug 22, 2008

:thumbsup: thanks Ev.

If Im running this with 220v does that change the schematic? And how does 220v change the 3 way switch wiring, if it even does.
With 2 110v wires, do they both go thru the switch or just one of them?
So the thermostat can interrupt power with just one leg of 110v going thru it? I always wonder about 220 since there are 2 - 110v legs. Does the other leg not do anything until the thermostat gives up the other 110v leg. ? Thats the only part I dont understand fully.

Vintage 68 · Aug 23, 2008

click said:
:thumbsup: thanks Ev.

If Im running this with 220v does that change the schematic? And how does 220v change the 3 way switch wiring, if it even does.
With 2 110v wires, do they both go thru the switch or just one of them?
So the thermostat can interrupt power with just one leg of 110v going thru it? I always wonder about 220 since there are 2 - 110v legs. Does the other leg not do anything until the thermostat gives up the other 110v leg. ? Thats the only part I dont understand fully.

Hey Jim - sorry it took a while to get back to you

Just revise the drawing to route the 'Neutral' (white) wire through the switch cirtcuit instead of the "hot" lead as I drew it.
You will now break the neutral lead to control the fan motor instead of the power lead, it's a 6-of-1/half-dozen-of-the-other type proposal - the power to the fan will still be controled the same ...
So - for use with 220vac, you are going to run;
1.) a black and a red wire to the input contacts of the motor directly from the circuit breaker
2.) wire the white neutral wire to the switch
3.) wire one of the terminals to the "C" contact on the temp. controller
4.) wire the other terminal of the switch to join up with the wire from the "cooling" contact of the temp. controller (as I drew, the three wire come together after the temp. controller) and the neutral of the motor
VIOLA - you are now switching the neutral (one white wire) v.s. the two (red/black) hot input wires to the fan - control of the fan will still work the same.

Hope this helps;
John M.

click · Aug 23, 2008

perfect John thanks again, just got back from Ace hardware with all the trimmings... heading to the barn for the day, I will report back if I did it right or blew up the barn

wooohooo

click · Aug 23, 2008

Ok got the fan installed, wiring half done... what about the copper wire in the 12/3 ?? do I ground that from the breaker box to the switch and up to the motor housing or not use it at all? Since I have the white wire that goes to the same ground terminal...
Another hour or so crawling around in the rafters and I might be done.
So what about the copper wire?

pics coming later

click · Aug 24, 2008

Some step by step pics in case anyone else needs to install a fan.

Still wonder about the bare copper wire, what do I do with it?

My ledge built to stand on:

Holes drilled thru to mark corners:

Standing back, view of garage door and area for fan

framing in place on inside, bolted from outside along edge of cut. Those siding bolts with the rubber washers on their collar are .46 cents each yikes... imagine hundreds of them.

The hole is cut,,, sawzall did it pretty well, a little flapping where 2 steel panels overlap:

The fan is in place, bolted into frame with lag bolts

Outside view of louvers, A few trim boards painted white around the edges to cover up those bolts and it should look pretty good.

Elec panel and new override switch and wiring:

Box where 220v 12guage wires end and 12guage 'stranded' wires link up and take over
Thermostat will be mounted between blue box and fan on the cross frame.

click · Aug 24, 2008

Well Houston we have lift off

it fired up on its test run, wires still need to be tacked against the frame boards, covers need to go on the boxes etc.. but it fired up. Now if I can figure out why the thermostat wont turn it off when I dial down the knob. I cant get the flip switch to take over no matter what the thermostat is set at. I did something wrong I guess.
The motor wiring diagram shows 2 'insulate' tabs with different color wires that go into the motor winding. I used one of them for my 'white/common' wire, not sure what the other 'insulate' is supposed to be, guess I will call the tech tomorrow.
It was over 100 degrees up in that darn loft today, I soaked my jeans and tee shirt and undies messing around with all this.
A 2nd note, the Ace hardware guy messed up and gave me black and white and green wire in 14guage instead of 12 guage that I asked for. I went ahead and used it but not sure if thats an issue or not, since the red strand wire is 12guage. With only 1/10th amp draw I hope its not an issue but if so I can change it easily.
For now, it blowing air and thats what I wanted.
Thanks to John and Ev and others for ideas too. :thumbsup:

jr68 · Aug 24, 2008

sweet, I want one !

JimM · Aug 24, 2008

Jim, I've only just read this page, I need to look at page 2 for the wiring suggestions, but..

I read something above about interupting the neutral?

Neutral is not used in a 220 circuit, except as a ground for safety. There is no current draw on the neutral. Current is drawn from one hot phase to the other...

Interupting either phase will stop the device, but normally we interupt both for safeties sake, to completely remove power. This isn't really a factor with your fan, if you ever need to go near it, trip the breaker.

'Course I am no expert on wiring big motors either, my 220v experience has either been small motors or resistance heat.

Everett#2390 · Aug 25, 2008

Glad to read the fan runs by the master switch. As JimM said, neutral is not a current carrying wire.

I would think one power wire would be hooked from circuit breaker to motor.
The other power wire would get connected to the thermostat C terminal and continue to motor via the COOL terminal for thermostat control. Turning thermostat up in ambient temperature would turn off fan until temperature is obtained.

Vintage 68 · Aug 25, 2008

:clonk::clonk::clonk: Man Jim - I sorry about the nuetral thingy - JimM is right ... hooking it up satisfies the ground/neutral, NOT the conducting circuits in 220 :sad:
(you have to understand that when you called I was at the hardware store with my wife ... getting her to a hardware store to make decisions about hindges and door hardware is like herding cats into a dark room full of running vacuum-cleaners - but if I didn't get this project done I may have come home to my clothes being used as tree ornaments - so I was a little distracted

)
Doing as the motor supplier suggested and breaking one leg of the 220 at the Temp-controller will effectively control the fan.
I'm used to installing industrial set-ups and I always use motor contactors controlled by systems to run fans and etc. So this direct wired residencial stuff gets me sometimes ...
If you run into any more trouble feel free to call - I promise to make sure my wife isn't asking me "this one or that one?" this time :thumbsup:
BTW - anytime you're working in a ceiling/atic space the ambient temp will always be somewhere above 100deg. :yes:

click · Aug 25, 2008

Going over after supper to route the black primary feed to the Tstat and then yank the white out of the mix, should be a few minutes work, but I do appreciate the help John. You think you have it bad with wife picking out colors? My wife is an artist, there are 10,000 shades of every color on the planet so Im used to waiting for that decision

but at least she puts up with me and our camaro and now our barns

Barn on the farm, Vent fan install,

buzzworth

click

Everett#2390

Nantooch

Vintage 68

pdq67

click

click

Everett#2390

click

Vintage 68

click

click

click

click

jr68

JimM

Everett#2390

Vintage 68

click

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