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classic gary

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I am officially RETRACTING any and all statements made by me concerning the 1969 Rally Green, Rally Sport, Z28, Camaro VIN # 124379N509335, recently auctioned at Barrett/Jackson/Las Vegas.

I am sorry for any problem my statements may have caused.

Gary aka classic gary
 
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#2 ·
classic gary said:
I am officially RETRACTING any and all statements made by me concerning the 1969 Rally Green, Rally Sport, Z28, Camaro VIN # 124379N509335, recently auctioned at Barrett/Jackson/Las Vegas.

I am sorry for any problem my statements may have caused.

Gary aka classic gary
Click to expand...
???
 
#3 ·
Sorry to hear they got to you Gary, I still don't believe the car is real or that you came around with ill intensions. For someone to bring that kind of pressure, and offer up no proof to the contrary, amazes me. They obviously had a lot to lose in this instance and their only way out was to scream lawsuit.:sad:
 
#5 ·
How about this reason..........?......from SYC

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/sho...ge&Number=363676&Searchpage=1&Main=362723&Words=&topic=1&Search=true#Post363676

would make an educated guess that someone reminded the alleged Gary guy that selling a VIN tag is a federal felony. Therefore his posts are (were) the only visible crime committed, complete with his admission, evidence of photos and old ebay auction information. That is probably why he isn't talking now and has had his posts deleted.

Oh, and yes, buying a VIN tag is also a federal felony, as is installing it on a body it didn't come on originally.

If you, as the new "owner" of the VIN tag have a shop install on another bodyshell for you, that adds another count of Conspiracy as well, and the shop people that install it are added to the indictment list.

The buyer is essentially an innocent victim if the car turns out to be a VIN-swapped rebody. The auction house has no liability based on their boilerplate contract with buyers/sellers. So the buyer would have to sue the seller in a civil action and try and get his $$$ back and he would have to bring in the alleged Gary guy to testify as to his selling of the VIN tag which would be difficult since he can claim his 5th ammendment right against self-incrimination.
 
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#7 ·
Ditto - Its a shame that the collector car business has become just that and not a hobby anymore. As I said previously this whole thing is very odorous and it is a real shame when threats of any kind and big monied laywers can enable some to cover up illegal dealings such as I consider has happened here. I sure I'm not the only one who feels this way right now and it would be good if more spoke out against it so forums like this and the CRG can feel like they may have some justification and backing when other such situations crop up and they will.
Maybe if enough of this crap continues the BJ's of the world will eventually get shut down and we can get back to enjoying our cars and not have to worry if we are going to get sued for speaking the truth or honestly discussing the true history of vehicles we have knowledge about.
Its a sad day here for America and especially for the collector car industry.
Gary I feel for you - I have the sense that you were just trying to do the right thing...
 
#9 ·
It seems to me that the only party really liable here is the seller of the car and BJ as they are mis-representing a product they are selling. Christy's in NYC surely doesn't auction a Picaso without expert examination and authentication. This is precisely why people have to stop taking BJ so seriously and pricing cars based on auction results. There needs to be more of a definative pricing structure for these cars that can be followed by all and it can't be based on phoney inflated auction results.
 
#11 ·
Like most of you, I have follwed this thread with fascination. I feel for the buyer of the car. I don't feel for any of the players from there back, starting with Gary.

I hope this may be a lesson to all of the crooks that sell vin tags and the wanna-be crooks that sell cowl tags. You jokers that sell fake build sheets and window stickers are just as crooked. You all deserve to go to jail!!! It's a dirty smudge on our hobby that needs to be removed.

I wish I could say I feel better after that rant but I don't.
 
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#12 ·
This is one case where the auction house or the inspectors are clearly not at fault.
The Offending Party is the guy who bought the stuff on ebay - and welded it onto the different body to resell as authentic - or possibly the restorer?

BJ can't be expected to certify every car.
But who knows - I am not a lawyer.

If done well enough and without major disassembling of the vehicle-
no one could ever know - except of course for that pesky paper trail.
 
#13 ·
#15 · (Edited)
I finally agree with Bruce (Xplantdad)...thank God I just want to drive my cars...lol

There are certain situations where even a diligent person doing their homework will not uncover a fake or less than ideal situation...Without what many here would consider an un-reasonable inspection...this is a great example of what could happen.

I don't place all of the blame on B&J as they are an auction house, yet they deserve at least half. IMO they should go to EVERY reasonable length to validate the cars they represent. IMO B&J is aligning itself with the likes of Christies, but instead of Monets..they do it with collectible cars..That being stated the art houses do not take on more than they can validate...and as such the prices are strong...buyers feel there is trust in bidding..and if something is awry..the house fixes it..afterall it is their reputation.

If the car auctions (B&J, Russo, etc.) can't validate within a certain degree all of the VIN's and their appearance..and IMO removing a fender to check for a VIN is reasonble..then they shoud co-sign less cars or remove themselves from "original" cars alltogether...and only list cars where the originality is secondary to the overall product..ie: street rods or pro touring cars...

Also on cars which are certain to draw a lot of bidder interest based on their originalty..ie: Yenkos, Z', L78, 440x6's, etc.. where the seller is claiming the car be an "original"...they should stop the co-signing at least 3-4 months ahead of the auction to allow for title examinations, the searching of owner history, consultations with "gurus", and a detailed inspection to include removal of certain parts etc..for originality. I would suspect they wouldn't be able to sell as many cars this way...but the overall auction would be drastically better...ie: as a bidder I'm more apt to spend money knowing I am bidding on a car which has been scrutinzed than one which hasn't..

Basically to preserve the integrity of the auction house, the auction process, the trust of the bidder and the trust of the seller the auction houses have to get away from the "you say it is..therefore it is.." mentality
 
#17 ·
ToocoolZ28 said:
My guess is, we will never hear from the real Gary again. Years from now there will be some sun bleached bones found way out in the desert.;)
Click to expand...
Man that's a dangerous post... I doubt you mean anything by it but you really put yourself in the spotlight if something happened to the guy!! And I don't watch the Sopranos much...
 
#18 ·
The term "you can't un-ring a bell" comes to mind. I was wondering when Gary was going to be enlightened that selling VIN tags and titles was a felony. I would bet that B-J and njsteve's post made him aware and that his retraction now is nothing but CYA.

Too much info has already been let out to now say this was all a big mistake. As much as I respect Mike Joy's influence on the hobby, I can't just take his word on the car and say that the story ends there.
 
#20 ·
What a mess. I can't wait to go over to sYc and read thier version!

There do seem to be a few things that are "non-retractable" because they are historic record.
The vin tag, cowl tag, & upper hidden vin were sold on ebay some years ago.
The same vin tag, cowl tag, & upper hidden vin were sold on ebay again, not terribly long ago, this time attached to a restorable Camaro body.

And a Camaro with the same vin sold at b-j for a cool buck an da quater... recently.

I wish I'd been watching this before all the good stuff was edited. There are still so many questions...

Where did the pop and all the paperwork, and day 1 pictures come from?
Were they included with the vin and cowl tags?

It's also unbelievably interesting to me that a car like this could be bragging "Certified by you know who." At least I hope you do, cause I most certainly do not, and no editing required either. I particularly like the part where it is said "the vin and cowl tag are real" but left out the part "but no longer attached to the car they were born with"
And I sure don't recall reading "reproduction drivetrain" in the b-j info.
Does it follow then that "certified by..." means simply that and nothing more?
As in "I paid xxx to certify my car." but I'm not gonna tell you what he found or said, and neither is he?
Did the buyer / bidders / anyone registered as a possible bidder at the auction actually get to see this document prior to bidding on the car?

And why the heck do the buyers of these cars never ever show up on the internet to vent thier wronged spleens for our amusement?
 
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