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run-a-way-69

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm going to go over some lessons I've learned over the last 32 years.

Myth -- Iron heads will make more power than aluminum heads.

Fact -- With all physical characteristics being the same (chamber shape and size, port shape and size) aluminum heads will equal Iron heads in performance.

Fact -- Iron heads make their best power at a lower temperature. 160Âş is the optimum temperature for power but this has it's drawbacks.

1. Cylinder wall wear increases as the operating temperature is reduced. 220Âş is the point at which wear will be reduced the most.

2. Lubricating oil is most efficient at a 300Âş. With a 160Âş head temperature the oil will never reach this temperature. Bearing clearances in iron headed engines need to be increased to reduce the size of the wedge of oil that the crank rides on to prevent the bearing from spinning in it's bore.

3. Iron heads need to be cooled off more between rounds. The heat soak will kill the performance. This is why you see all those fancy electric water pumps.

Fact -- Aluminum cylinder heads will make the best power at 210Âş Every NASCAR team uses aluminum heads and make 750 horsepower with 352 cubic inches. They achieve this by running coolant temperatures of 210Âş - 220Âş. This has several advantages for a street car.

1. Less cylinder wall wear. The big three auto makers now run coolant temperatures of 195Âş+ and its not uncommon to see these engines last 200,000 miles or more.

2. Tighter bearing clearances. The oil gets up to the 300Âş and is more efficient at lubricating. Thus less wear and tear on the engine.

3. No need for those fancy electric water pumps.

Here's how you equalize the playing field using an aluminum head.

1. Use a 195Âş thermostat to get that motor up to temperature.

2. Use Evans NPG coolant. This coolant is designed to operate at above 190Âş and will not boil over until it reaches 260Âş and will stop any steam pockets from forming in the cooling system.

And finally here's how a rookie can be more consistant with their ET's with an aluminum headed engine. Get that motor up to temperature.

I don't know how many times I've heard this.I gotto the dragway and imediately made a pass and ran a 12.40 but all my other runs were .2 to .3 tenths slower. Why. It's because they watched a driver of an iron headed car cool down his motor between rounds and he figured he would do the same. Not a good idea. Build up that heat first and the consistancy will be there.

This is the truth and nothing but the truth. George
 
Honest....Joe Isuzu.

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Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).
 
I think too many guys have never run alum heads or they got the wrong ones. I have had no problems and in most instances there is a power increase because of the ability to run more timing. If you race with alum. heads don't get caught with a cold motor it flat will not perform.
 
My aluminum head 388 seems to run best and most consistent with coolant temp 160-180* for some reason. I don't know why mine is different from the norm, but maybe it has something to do with underhood temps and intake air.

I always drive the car to the track and the first pass is always slow --- then when it cools off a bit it picks right up and stays dead on the rest of the night. Its one of those things that make you go Hmmmmmmm . . .

BTW I run straight water with a bottle of wetter water in it for the summer. Keeps my temp 160 - 180 on even the hottest days sitting in traffic - with a good old fashioned copper/brass 3 core radiator.
 
Most engine oils will not last long at 300 degrees. Oil life can be counted in minutes at that temp.
Most dyno tests show running oil temps around 220 work well.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer
 
I don't want to start a big huge debate here, but I'd like it if you could expain your first myth about iron heads making more power. I'm just curious.

To me, I would think that if you take two heads, one aluminum and one iron, and they are exactly the same except for the material, that the iron head will make more power if they were both tested using the same compression.

To explain, I believe the cast iron head will retain the heat in the cylinder better. If the heat is conducted away from the expanding charge before it can fully act on the pison, power can be lost. The aluminum will dissapate the heat, and you would need to run higher compression to equal the power output of the iron head. I don't think a benefit of aluminum head is the ability to run higher compression, but you MUST run higher compression to compensate for the heat being released.

To quote David Vizard;
"Aluminum heads are more effective heat conductors than cast iron, and power can be measureable reduced by heat loss into the water jackets" "an aluminum head suffers from fewer combustion chamber-hot spots...permitting a higher compression ratio with aluminum"

And finally: "For lower-compression applications, such as street performance, cast iron is a better base material because of its improved thermal efficiency"

Again, I'm not picking a fight about this. I just want to throw some ideas out there.

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Matt Jones
1969 Base Camaro
Vortec 355, Perf. RPM, Demon Carb., TH-400
All sheetmetal is NOS GM
See my webpage at: http://www.geocities.com/compuboy007/
 
George - care to elaborate on the 32 years of experience, it might help the "This is the truth and nothing but the truth" statement.

I'm not a live to race gearhead but do follow performance issues or trends a little. Most of the reading (not just mags) I have done tends to lend itself to when all things being equal, (like head except for the material it's made from) Iron heads retain heat better, and heat is power. I'm not disputing what you have stated just looking for something more definitive to support what you said.

Mike - the one thing I have some first hand experience with is an alum headed LT1 ('96SS) that when cool seems to have more punch than when up to operating temps. This is a seat of the pants thing I don't have numbers to prove it. I do know the computer has some to do with it as cooler means more timing and such. Comparing the LT1 to the 383 with iron heads the 383 like 180+ from again that seat of the pants feel where as the LT1 seem more powerful around 160 deg temps...

Thanks for keeping it civil!!

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 our local club"
and the "daily driver"
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
OK I'll clear up some issues here.

Eric You're right about the under hood air temp and intake temp. You will lose performance if the air is hot. It's ideal to have a cooler denser intake charge. Ihe import racers use cold air intake tubes. Turbos and centrifical blowers use intercoolers to reduce temps. NASCAR motors use 2 piece spider intakes to offset this problem.

David The 300Âş oil temperature is at the bearing itself, not the oil in the pan. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer on that.

Matt With aluminum the loss of thermal efficiency is reduced by having a hotter cylinder head temperature. Thus the hotter the head the more heat will be kept in the combustion chamber to make more power. As for compression ratios Nascar motors have a compression ratio of 14 to 1 and make 725 to 750 HP. Nascar trucks have a 9.5 to 1 and make 675 to 700 HP. Now if you translate the differences in compression ratio to an iron head you would see the same losses.

Dennis I'll have to get back to you tomorrow. Gotta go to work. I'll share some real life experiences I think you'll find interesting. George
 
one trend i ALWAYS see in the magazines when they do an aluminum/iron head comparison is this- they say the heads are the same, but the aluminum heads just happen to have CNC ports and/or chambers, where the iron heads don't. unless, of course, they are showing off a new set of "awesome budget" iron heads, then they use unported or otherwise touched up aluminum heads. seems to me that power-wise, they are about equal. but, to me, the lighter weight of the aluminum heads would make them work better in a real car in the real world.

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1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16X8" IROC wheels. 12" Corvette brakes on the way.
see pics here http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik
 
Originally posted by run-a-way-69:
[B
Matt With aluminum the loss of thermal efficiency is reduced by having a hotter cylinder head temperature. Thus the hotter the head the more heat will be kept in the combustion chamber to make more power.

That`s one reason i believe that the HYPEREUTECTIC K/B pistons perform as well as they do. They retain more heat in the top of the piston witch would make for a hotter combustion chamber.


As for compression ratios Nascar motors have a compression ratio of 14 to 1 and make 725 to 750 HP. Nascar trucks have a 9.5 to 1 and make 675 to 700 HP. Now if you translate the differences in compression ratio to an iron head you would see the same losses.

One of the HP differances is that besides compression, the Trucks are allowed to use roller cams while the Cup cars are not.

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78 Camaro hyd cam 406
TH350-3.23 gear
11.86 ET
116.7 MPH
 
Oh, so that's why you say they (aluminum) run best at 210? I guess that makes sense.

Sooo...then it comes down to: is the reduced weight of aluminum worth the higher price?

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Matt Jones
1969 Base Camaro
Vortec 355, Perf. RPM, Demon Carb., TH-400
All sheetmetal is NOS GM
See my webpage at: http://www.geocities.com/compuboy007/
 
CamaroNOTcamero
Can you please add some insight to this discussion, I respect your opinion and the knowledge that you have .
BTW: A question was ask in another post about how many Engine have you built, do you care to answer the question are will you plead the 5th, so not to incriminate yourself....
Thanks: David

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DTL504
"COMING SOON SBC 406"
84 Z28 Camaro, 2 Seater Convertible, w/283 bored 80 over,flat top pistons, 2.02/1.60 Camel Hump Heads 64cc (3782461), Blueracer Camshaft: Duration 230/230 @.050 Lift 480/480 109 degrees, Edelbrock RPM Maniford, Holley 670 Avenger Carb, Hooker Ceramic Coated 1 5/8 Headers, Pro-Built 700R4 Street/Strip Trans. A.C.T. 3000 T.Q.,
3:73 Limited Slip., Kyb Shocks, Spon LCA and ADJ. Panhard Rod.
 
Dennis, your car runs better when cold because of the computer and smog systems most smog systems don't work untill the engine reaches operating temp. The most common reason for an engine running better when not at operating temp is because of under hood temp. If your car has some sort of a fresh air intake it should run better at 190-200deg. I can tell you from experience about alum. heads and a cold race motor. If you don't get some heat into them I have the engine actually backfire when you shift. This is one of those subjects that there are two distinct ideas and neither will probabily change no matter what is said. I like alum heads even on street cars others will not run a set even if they were given to them. That is their right I will probabily not be able to change their beliefs and they won't be able to change mine. Just to add something at one time there was an epoxy coating that people put in the water jackets of alum. heads to help prevent as much thermal loss. I don't know if it is still around but it is an idea.
 
if one was to use a thermal coating on a set of alluminum heads would this raise the thermal effeciancy? would the coating reguire a lower compression ratio? or is this a try and see kinda deal. by the way i may do this at some point to see the difference. Dave
 
My opinion on the iron vs aluminum thing is this: iron will make 10-15 HP more power than aluminum, but then if you add 1 point of compression to the aluminum motor you gain 10 - 15 HP on the compression. Its a wash really. Then all thats left is weight savings, so IMO aluminum is better by just a hair.

But that is just my opinion
Image


ps. I did experiment some with a cold air induction setup last season, but I kept my engine at "race temp" when I was playing around. Maybe I'll try some passes with the cold air induction and a hot engine next summer.
 
You will obtain your best volumetric efficiency at an engine temperature between 190 and 208 degrees F.....as oger has stated.

There are more differences between NASCAR and NASTRUCK than what has been mentioned in the respect of power production.

In reality, cylinder head temperature is not what needs to be scrutinized. It is and always will be the process of combustion, and the related factors therein. But specifically addressing the 'material', cast iron does have the potential to make more power than that of aluminum. And yes it does have to do with its heat retention principals.

First of all, with aluminum 'shedding' more heat (remember that heat is potential energy), you tipically have to raise the engine compresion ratio 1 (one) point to increase combustion chamber temperature saturation that would equal that of iron an chamber. So no, with all physical characteristics being the same, aluminum heads will not equal iron heads in power production on an equal plane.....the only thing similar will be cylinder head flow.

It is true that iron makes power at a lower temperature (@180-190) hence the difference in running temperature of late model aluminum headed engines around 200 to 220 degrees F. But as stated before, you will reach the best volumetric effiency between 190-208 degrees F.

In reference to the oil temperature, it is best to maintain it 40-50 F degrees higher than engine coolant temperature. There are very few oils that will even suspend the additives at 300 F, so no, I dont belive that statement either. Anything that you can purchase off the shelf has a limited operating range to the upperside of 270 F and even at that temp it is no longer stable....it just wont hold onto its additives.

Boy this could go on forever.......
 
Sheetmetal-
Yes, thermal barrier coatings can dramatically reduce thermal conductivity. Fuel economy and power increase about 3% in most cases. However, you can see as much as 8% gains (possibly more) if you coat the pistons! As far as compression goes, I would think you would have to lower it a bit to avoid detonation.

Think about it: a 400HP small block can see 40 more HP just with the coatings. I don't remember how much they cost, but I'm sure it's not too cheap. They are very, very durable, however.

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Matt Jones
1969 Base Camaro
Vortec 355, Perf. RPM, Demon Carb., TH-400
All sheetmetal is NOS GM
See my webpage at: http://www.geocities.com/compuboy007/

[This message has been edited by Silver69Camaro (edited 12-10-2002).]
 
Very interesting reading. My engine will not reach any of the tempatures being talked about, and all this time I thought that was a good thing. My engine (aluminum heads) runs almost always 100* above the tempature outside (ie... 85 degrees outside and my engine temp is 185*). I might have to try a higher rated theromstat just to see if it makes a difference at the track. My oil temp never reaches the 270* mark more like 210-220 if I am on it pretty good (during cruising it is usually 190-200*). This is with synthetic oil it does run warmer with dyno oil.

Now is this oil tempature (270*) better for perfomance or better for engine life. I guess what is the reason for wanting it 40-50* higher than the water temp. Is this to burn off contaminants?

Royce

[This message has been edited by camaroman7d (edited 12-10-2002).]
 
I would like to jump in with a few shots myself. A great discusion I might add.

First, not all aluminum or iron heads are created equal within their media type. They cool and/or retain heat at differing rates and temperatures. This depends on casting and milling designs moreover. So, the pigeon hole comparisons are not exactly oranges and oranges....but maybe oranges and tangerines! Modern OEM and aftermarket aluminum heads have smaller cooling jackets to slow cooling from the heads/chamber to make up for the loss of heat as commonly described. Horsepower formulas have NOT changed one ioda for aluminun or iron media....it's the ultimate peak combustion PRESSURE that makes power...not necessarily temperature even tho it's a obvious component of the pressure.

One last fact, coolant (jacket) temperatures are not an accurate indicator of metal temperatures period...there are too many unknowns and anomolies to make these assumptions and accurate metal temperatures have to be taken at strategic spots. The metal can be several hundred degrees hotter than the adjacent coolant AND MOREOVER THE COMBUSTION TEMPERATURES ARE IN FACT SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF DEGREES HOTTER THAN THE METAL, but yes higher coolant temperatures can HELP FOSTER peak combustion temperatures. But, when most of these peak combustion temperatures are thousands of degrees above the coolant temperatures, does a 10 or 15 degrees really make a difference on peak combustion temps?

Just physics food for thought?

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STEVE "Jack'Stands" JACK
Techical forum/links at Jack'Stands TechForums and Links

[This message has been edited by HOTRODSRJ (edited 12-11-2002).]
 
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