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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Yes another Muncie ID question. I just pulled the motor on my car and am in the process of pulling trans. It's definitely a Muncie, had seven bolt side cover, reverse in tail housing. Haven't pulled the driveshaft or side cover yet. Input shaft is 26 spline and NO rings or groves on it. Have been looking up info, and many say that 26 spline didn't appear until 1970. My car built October 68, and numbers seem to match on this trans. Not sure I can tell the difference in the gear teeth when I pull the side cover. Tell me about the 26 spline issue and any other info for identifying this trans.
Thanks
RJ
 
Discussion starter · #2 ·
Trans is out, side cover off. 26 spline input shaft, 27 spline output shaft, speedo on passenger side, side cover #3950306, main case #3925660, patent #3088366, what else can I tell you
RJ
 
Look on the pass side at the center plate and you will see the VIN and characters stamped. PXXXX(A, B, or C). A = M20, B = M21, C = M22. The numbers will be the date code, I think.

Shift arms held on by 3/8 inch bolts is a '69 or later trans.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
I read the other day that the A,B,C code that tells you what trans it is, didn't appear until December 68, My car was built in October 68, so it doesn't have any of those letters. As for the partial VIN and all that, that matches the car.
The lack of grooves on the input shaft indicates M-22 for '69, but the gears inside don't look like M-22 teeth to me, but I'm far from an authority on that. Still trying to sort it out.
RJ
 
M22 teeth are almost straight cut, the rest are angled cut. I would put a tape flag on each shaft and shift into 1st gear and compare the input revolution the the output shaft rev, 2.20:1 would have been most common as 2.52:1 would be M22, I believe.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the info. the wierd thing is that I have a 26 spline input shaft, but all the data says that 26 spline didn't come out until 1970. I wonder if somebody rebuilt it using the 26 instead of the 10 spline, if this is even possible. Not sure why they would do that unless it has to do with durability.
The trans HAS been rebuilt, cause it's mint inside.
RJ
 
Trans is out, side cover off. 26 spline input shaft, 27 spline output shaft, speedo on passenger side, side cover #3950306, main case #3925660, patent #3088366, what else can I tell you
RJ
side cover #3950306 is 1969

No grooves on the MDG/input gear designate an M22 but, this is NOT always true with all of the gear manufactures out there.

The best thing to do is post some pictures to ID her.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
thanks,
It definately isn't an M-22 based on the teeth cut. Somebody has rebuilt it and changed the input shaft. I marked the input and output shaft and rotated them in 1st gear, and it looks to be a 2.5 1st gear, and was probably a 10 spline input before the rebuild. Why would they change from 10 to 26 on the input? Is the 26 better/stronger?
RJ
 
The more splines, the more surface area for torque to be appled against.
Think of using a smooth handle screwdriver, then use a splined handle.
And also, maybe this 26 spline was only available at time of repair?
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Hey thanks everett, that's what i figured, but wasn't certain. The car has a Zoom 11" clutch that is pretty tired too, haha. Flywheel could probably be ground and be OK. Was thrown off quite a bit by that input shaft, but I have since read that the later aftermarket input shafts and those made by GM later didn't have the grooves in them, so no ID possible from that bit of info.

What are you running in your car for a camshaft? I'm gonna get rid of that Comp Xtreme Energy hydraulic cam and go roller. Try to pick up some more ponies. Gonna have the block decked and aline bored and all that crap too i guess. Do you think a guy could run 11:1 compression on pump gas with the aluminum heads, or would that be stupid.
RJ
 
thanks,
It definately isn't an M-22 based on the teeth cut. Somebody has rebuilt it and changed the input shaft. I marked the input and output shaft and rotated them in 1st gear, and it looks to be a 2.5 1st gear, and was probably a 10 spline input before the rebuild. Why would they change from 10 to 26 on the input? Is the 26 better/stronger?
RJ
Autogear also has an M22W gearset with the 2.56:1 1st gear. Are you certain about the helix angle?

For a time, the M22W was only available with the 26 spline input shaft.
 
You're welcome, RJ. At the time of purchase, a Lunati 20102 solid flat installed straight up.

I would listen to what others suggest on line boring and decking the block. If you lay a straight edge across the block saddles and can insert a 0.001" feeler gauge, then line bore the block. Another check is to lay Plastigauge in the journals with the crank and look at the results. If they are all even, alignment, I believe, would be good. Plus also, if 0.010" is taken off, then a shorter timing chain will need to be bought to keep out the slack. My test is to lay the crank in the block and with no seal, spin the crank by hand. If it continues for another 1.5 turns, I go with it.

Same with decking the block. Check piston height/depth in the block of all cylinders and compare. If you see a 0.005" slope/difference to the other side, then maybe decking should be considered.

I personally leave the block alone. I do remove the dowel pins and shrink the diameter for a slip fit. The purpose of this feature is for me to use a new honing stone and hone the deck smooth and the same to the heads. You'll see the broach marks and see them go away. Now, there is smooth surface for the steel shim head gaskets and no sealer. Steel shim gaskets for the purpose of better heat distribution between the head and block and with the pistons 0.025" depth and a 0.015" thick gasket, gives a quench of 0.040", ideal.

I do balance the assembly, even on a street engine in the daily driver. Well worth the money spent.

As said, these are my thoughts and they have worked for me. I'll get the next round for us and sit back and listen to the pros.

Kindda out of the realm of a trans thread...........As for the 11:1 pump gas ratio, OEM's are doing it, but its computer controlled. I personally shoot for around 9.5-10.5:1. But then, I'm running what I can afford and have in the garage/shed.
 
Muncie information (Provided by Zumbrota Bearing and Gear, Inc.)

Case casting numbers, relating production years
Casting: 3831704 Years: 1963 Only - 7/8" Counter shaft pin (207) input beairng
Casting: 3839606 Years: 1963 - 1964 -7/8" Counter shaft pin
Casting: 3851325 Years: 1964 - 1965 -7/8" Counter shaft pin
Casting: 3864848 Years: 1965 only -7/8" Counter shaft pin
Casting: 3864___ Years: 1965 only -7/8" Counter shaft pin (last 3 digits milled off)
Casting: 3885010 Years: 1965 - 1967 - 1" Counter shaft pin
Casting: 3925660 Years: 1968 - 1970 - 1" Counter shaft pin
Casting: 3925661 Years: 1970 - 1974 - 1" Counter shaft pin (used in some early 1975 cars)

Ratios of the M20 , M21 , M22
Year 1963-1965 Type: M20 Rings: None Ratio: 2.56 / 1.91 / 1.48 / 1.00 / 3.16
Year 1966-1974 Type: M20 Rings: Two Ratio: 2.52 / 1.88 / 1.46 / 1.00 / 3.11
Year 1963-1974 Type: M21 Rings: One Ratio: 2.20 / 1.64 / 1.28 / 1.00 / 2.27
Year 1967-1974 Type: M22 Rings: None Ratio: 2.20 / 1.64 / 1.28 / 1.00 / 2.27

Input Shaft Tooth and Spline Count Related to Year
Year 1963-1965 Type: M20 Rings: None Spline: 10 Tooth Count: 24
Year 1966-1970 Type: M20 Rings: Two Spline: 10 Tooth Count: 21
Year 1970-1974 Type: M20 Rings: Two Spline: 26 Tooth Count: 21
Year 1963-1970 Type: M21 Rings: One Spline: 10 Tooth Count: 26
Year 1970-1974 Type: M21 Rings: One Spline: 26 Tooth Count: 26
Year 1967-1970 Type: M22 Rings: None Spline: 10 Tooth Count: 26
Year 1969-1974 Type: M22 Rings: None Spline: 26 Tooth Count: 26

Important Notes
Some input shafts produced by the aftermarket and General Motors have no identifying rings on them. The rings originally corresponded with rings or grooves on the cluster gear so that the assembler matched a one or two ring input with a one or two ring cluster. When regular production was stopped in 1974, GM stopped making inputs with these marks, possibly to save machining costs. Tail housing casting numbers 3857584 (1966-1970 27 spline tails) and 3978764 (1970-1974 32 spline tails) had passenger side speedometer outputs, all others used drivers side speedometer outputs. All 32 spline tails had the passenger side speedometer output.

Reading Serial and VIN Numbers
Serial numbers on the Muncie 4 speeds begin with the letter "P". The serial number includes a date code of when the transmission was assembled. Serial numbers from 1963 to 1966 included just the month and day. P0101 would indicate January 1st. From 1967 to 1968 the serial number got a year designator and a letter designator for the month such as P7D27, meaning April 27 for the 1967 model year. One thing to remember, if you have a Muncie dated with a September to December build date, the transmission was actually assembled the prior year. An example would be the date code P9R12C, this is for a 1969 production car, the R stands for October and 12 stands for the day. This means this Muncie was assembled October 12, 1968 for the 1969 model year. 1969 to 1974 Muncie’s got a ratio designator at the end of the serial number. Another example is P4K31B, this works out to be July 31, 1974, M21 ratio.

Current ratios that are available

Model - Application - Input spline - Counter shaft OD - 1st gear ratio - 2nd gear ratio - 3rd gear ratio - 4th gear

M20 - 1963-65 - 10 - 7/8” only - 2.56 - 1.91 - 1.48 - 1.00
M20 - 1965-74 - 10 or 26 - 1” only - 2.52 - 1.88 - 1.46 - 1.00
M21Y - In case overdrive - 10 or 26 - 1” only - 2.20 - 1.51 - 1.00 - 0.86
M21 - 1963-65 - 10 or 26 - 7/8” only - 2.20 - 1.64 - 1.28 - 1.00
M21 - 1965-1974 - 10 or 26 - 1” only - 2.20 - 1.64 - 1.28 - 1.00
M22 - 1967-1974 - 10 or 26 - 1” only - 2.20 - 1.64 - 1.28 - 1.00
M22X - Road race ratio - 10 or 26 - 1” only - 2.20 - 1.51 - 1.17 - 1.00
M22W - Wide ratio M22 - 26 only - 1” only - 2.56 - 1.75 - 1.37 - 1.00
 
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