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700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

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#41 ·
jakeshoe said:
Of course he was plotting to destroy the trans, he's an engine builder :D

I build transmissions and when I build an engine, my goal is to test my transmissions behind it thoroughly.
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I was worried enough I had Matt feel the end play on the crank when the engine was on the dyno. I saw a 700 actually bend a flexplate it was pushing so hard, dont ask me how but it did.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
Two things that I know of that cause thrust bearing to go are the bearing never set correctly or too much pressure pushing on the crank. My theory, the violet shift into drive. Shifting my 700 into drive was brutall. You better have your foot on the brake. I called Monster 3 times about it and they said it was normal. I just don't see how the hard shift violent lunge forward was good on my crank
 
#43 ·
zlek131 said:
Two things that I know of that cause thrust bearing to go are the bearing never set correctly or too much pressure pushing on the crank. My theory, the violet shift into drive. Shifting my 700 into drive was brutall. You better have your foot on the brake. I called Monster 3 times about it and they said it was normal. I just don't see how the hard shift violent lunge forward was good on my crank
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Your shift into drive being violent is because Monster sold you a '83 core 700-R4, which has no forward accumulator. GM added the accumulator in '87 for good reason.

Add in excessive line pressure, likely no cushion plate in the forwards, and you get harsh shifts into Drive. That may be rough on the trans and drivetrain but it has nothing to do with crank thrust failure.

Crank thrust failure can be caused by engine machining or assy error, or excessive loading of the crank by a heavy pressure plate on a stick car or excessive loading from a converter on a automatic car.

On an automatic, the converter charge pressure comes from the pump into the converter. It fills and flows through the converter, then out to the cooler, and then back into the transmission to the lube circuit.

Some transmissions are "crank killers" particularly on certain engines that have a weaker thrust area. SBC's and BBC's are better than most in this aspect.
However a TH400 is a known POSSIBLE crank killer.

We test different transmissions in our test car fairly often and we measure the pressure of the fluid as it exits the trans cooler line coming out of the converter. It gives us an indication of what converter charge pressure is.

On a 200-4R or 700-R4 (the pumps are very similar) we typically see 15-25 psi cooler line pressure or converter charge.
On a TH400 it is often 30-70 psi.

200s and 700's have a blowoff in the pump to reduce pressure if they get too high. A TH400 does not.

TH400s are hit or miss. Some make more pressure than others. You can have the same max line pressure of 180 psi, and one will have 30 psi cooler pressure, the next may have 80 psi.

This problem seems more prevalent when we go to a fixed line pressure setup such as a transbrake of full manual valve body. There is a mod I do that helps reduce the pressure going to the converter.

The converter design can also have an effect. Some converters don't "drain" as well as others. Lube holes in the input shaft, stator bushing clearance, etc all come into play.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
Jake you've really provided some good info regarding the 700r4 here. I've been trying to find someone that could explain to me the hard shift into drive but no one could so far. I've posted here as well as other places, talked to others and researched it a lot but no luck. I really wish I was armed with this kind of information when I was having my conversations with Monster or even before I ordered my tranny. I was really surprised to hear about the early cores and the lack of accumulator. I don't understand why a reputable tranny builder would even consider the old cores based on this information. Key word, reputable. "What year is the core?" would have been one of my first questions when I was tranny shopping. Hopefully guys shopping for 700r4 will be reading this thread. Regarding the torque converters and crank push, I've read about crank push due to torque converter "swelling" at high RPMs. I understand some torque converts are made with anti swell plates... What's your take on that? Anyway, very good info here guys!
 
#46 ·
Driving habits and incorrect shifts will wear and tear up any transmission reagrdless of the type... which is not associated with torque output alone..... The bulletproof units are more forgiving of mistakes made by the driver's behavior, but they too can fail.....

We have seen this before, trannys being torn up or mechanical failure, due to driver's behavior , but most guys associate it with the motor being too strong and powerful..... Who accepts the blame?

It amazes me how many people fall for the "Horsepower" capabilites of transmission thats sold and marketed by many large tranny companies.....

Do your reasearch and see whats actually being multiplied by the converter......... and the phenomom going on at the crank and shaft.....

The other great thing is that you did not have a crank thrust failure for it would have been an epic fail even though the 700r would most likely not have be the culprit......:sad:
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
I really did hate that TV cable, which if set incorrectly WILL toast 3/4 clutches. I had all the darn adapters, levers, linkages that claimed to make the geometry correct but I could never get it dialed it correctly. There was that occasional "flare up" from 2nd to 3rd. Only way to make that tranny shift close to correct was to have the cable pulled out a little. I called Monster about it and they said that's what it takes on some of them. Of course that made the cable travel to short hence WOT would stretch or reset the adjustment. All I got to say is NO TV CABLE on TH400:hurray::hurray::hurray:

You are right when it comes to HP ratings on these darn trannys. I even saw a 700R4 rated up to 1000HP, whatever! Here is what I learned from this exercise. Look at the HP ratings from a "relative" point of view. Monster's stage-3 700r4 rates up to 650hp while their TH400 rates up to 950hp. That's a relative 300hp difference which tells the story as to which tranny is stronger.
 
#48 ·
This has been an interesting thread to read and I want to say sorry for all your bad luck with the 700r4. I run one that was built by a builder who is no longer in business but has survived these past 6 years first behind a built 355 and now my built 406. I used the Bow Tie Overdrive's setup for correct tv cable geometry and did as they said including recording line pressures for each gear, as well as reverse and called them with my pressure readings to make sure I had the cable set properly. Though my trans is pre-87 it had the internals for the later trans including the front pumps with the 28 spline converter. I run a 9" 3000 stall lockup converter with an external B+M cooler along with some trans additive for temps. I have a trans temp gauge and the builder said ideally the temps should stay below 200* which mine has only been to 185*. Though I don't have 600+ hp and tq, I do run somewhere in neighborhood of 500 hp and tq. I hammer on my car hard at times and so far so good. I too run 3.73 gears and when I ran a built turbo 350 trans, the highway driving was horrible along with the cost of gas and that is when I switched to the 700r4. Good luck with your new setup and it will be interesting to follow this thread.
 
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#50 ·
zlek131 said:
I really did hate that TV cable, which if set incorrectly WILL toast 3/4 clutches. I had all the darn adapters, levers, linkages that claimed to make the geometry correct but I could never get it dialed it correctly. There was that occasional "flare up" from 2nd to 3rd. Only way to make that tranny shift close to correct was to have the cable pulled out a little. I called Monster about it and they said that's what it takes on some of them. Of course that made the cable travel to short hence WOT would stretch or reset the adjustment. All I got to say is NO TV CABLE on TH400:hurray::hurray::hurray:

You are right when it comes to HP ratings on these darn trannys. I even saw a 700R4 rated up to 1000HP, whatever! Here is what I learned from this exercise. Look at the HP ratings from a "relative" point of view. Monster's stage-3 700r4 rates up to 650hp while their TH400 rates up to 950hp. That's a relative 300hp difference which tells the story as to which tranny is stronger.
Click to expand...
The TV cable isn't rocket science. A company has no business selling a TV operated transmission if they can't explain to you how to properly adjust it.

You likely had a carb with the TV stud too far from the centerline of the throttle shaft.
This creates a "too long" pull on the TV cable, so to have proper WOT adjustment, you would have early soft shifts. You adjusted it for good shifts and then it pulls the TV cable out of adjustment at WOT or limits WOT.

I've had some idiots claim the TV cable can limit WOT, and they are stupid enough to believe that and not realize it's because they don't know how to properly set it up.
Notice I said, set it up, not adjust. There is more to it than adjusting it. The geometry must be correct on the carb or throttle body.
Proper adjustment only applies to an OEM car that had proper geometry to begin with.

http://www.jakesperformance.com/TV_Cable_Setup_Info.html
 
#51 ·
zlek131 said:
Bow Tie Overdrive's TV setup - Yes, I have heard good things about this setup. I know several guys on here that run them and are very happy with it. Kind of wish I went with them to begin with but once again, live and learn...
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I have the second generation BTO TV Made EZ system including their "special" spring and it does the same damn thing as yours did, Matt. The cable really needs to be pulled out one click more to get the part throttle shifts where I want them, but then mash the throttle and it resets itself to whimpy mode. Even in whimp mode it does have insant pressure rise, so I live with it.
 
Discussion starter · #52 · (Edited)
jakeshoe said:
You likely had a carb with the TV stud too far from the centerline of the throttle shaft.
Click to expand...
I tried 3 different throttle adapters for my eddy. One from Monster, one from Edelbrock and one from an aftermarket place. I would think/hope one of these got it right, no?

To your point you are absolutely correct, if the TV cable is connected too low from the center of the throttle lever's pivot point then by simple rules of geometry the travel will increase. No matter which bracket I used, I would still experience premature shifts into 2nd, 3rd, OD at the same time WOT was not an issue or limited by the cable in anyway. Only way I could make it shift good, was to pull the cable out a bit. This did limit WOT in way but not really as my foot always won the battle. I would achieve WOT but at the same time I would stretch the cable or throw it out of adjustment. Monster’s solution to that is a little spring that attaches at the end of the TV cable right after the nipple that slides onto carb stud. This allowed the throttle lever to travel past the "limitation" of the TV cable (created by having the cable pulled out a bit) as the spring on the end would compress but not pull on the TV cable which would be “maxed out” by then. That resolved the battle of WOT and TV cable in my case.

EDIT: BTW, I read your TV cable adjustment writeup a couple days ago. MUCH better than Monster's! :thumbsup:
 
#53 ·
BPOS said:
I have the second generation BTO TV Made EZ system including their "special" spring and it does the same damn thing as yours did, Matt. The cable really needs to be pulled out one click more to get the part throttle shifts where I want them, but then mash the throttle and it resets itself to whimpy mode. Even in whimp mode it does have insant pressure rise, so I live with it.
Click to expand...
Mine came with the a special spring also to replace the one that was in the trans along with the new tv cable and all related hardware. It is pricey, but in my opinion well worth the money give what one of the trans cost. With their system you have some fine adjustment with the bracket that the cable is connected to, it has a curved slot with a set screw so that you can get that little bit of adjustment without changing the cable at the ratcheting part of it. It is well worth taking the pressure readings also and letting them know what they are so you don't take that first ride and burn up an expensive trans.
 
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#54 ·
cc82z-28 said:
Mine came with the a special spring also to replace the one that was in the trans along with the new tv cable and all related hardware. It is pricey, but in my opinion well worth the money give what one of the trans cost. With their system you have some fine adjustment with the bracket that the cable is connected to, it has a curved slot with a set screw so that you can get that little bit of adjustment without changing the cable at the ratcheting part of it. QUOTE]

Sounds like what I have. It doesn't work. When you make a change on the little curved slot, it changes the TV cable pull, so you have to readjust. Mash the throttle and it it pulls the ratchet adjustor back to soft early shifts. I still have the first gen BTO system - I think i'll reinstall it and use the Sonnax spring that Matt referred to. To be honest, I'm just waiting for this BTO trans to blow up - then I'll have Jake build me a real one, or buy Chris Kokkonis' book and some good hard parts and do it myself.
Click to expand...
 
#55 ·
Awesome thread Matt and TC members... I think i made up my mind and when i do the swap on the 4-speed it will be replaced with Jakes 4L804 STAGE 3 for my BBC 498 with 373 @ 636hp and 654tq. Like to run a 3,500 stall thats what the cam specs out for.
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
Skip, based on own experience of 700 and seeing 4L80e beast sitting on a table next to it and all other input here, 4l80e is the winner OD tranny...at least that's my bet. I have to say it would be the ultimate war to see a 4l80e beast run vs th400 behind the same motor. All dialed in and all. I love old muscle vs new muscle regardless which way it goes. Of course I don't care what anyone says OD rules!!!. Even if it does cost a little et or HP (to be proven). But than again how can anyone beat the fun of a 4 speed... it comes down to different strokes for different folks..man I love cars!
 
#57 ·
We've tested the 4L80E behind the same engine as the TH400. I mentioned it earlier in the thread.
'76 Camaro, 496 BBC, 4.10 rear, 28" slicks, we had the converter for the 4L80E built to match the TH400 converter specs exactly because the TH400 converter was spot on.

The car ran slightly faster with the 4L80E. 60' harder and ET'd better.
I contribute it to a slightly better build on the converter and/or slightly better track prep or weather. However the car did not slow down.
 
#58 ·
Hey Matt - Don't compromise. That's my advice. Get the 4L80E. You know how cool OD is. A T400 and and a 3.08 is giving away a BUNCH of gear.....maybe not a gigantic issue with eleventy billion lbs/ft of torque, but you're giving up significant gear at both ends and settling for the namby pamby middle, and I don't think you'll be ultimately happy. You're not building a drag racer, you're building a street car. And your motor would spit a Muncie out the tailpipes.....go to your local drags and see how many are running a healthy 496 and a Muncie....nobody.
 
#59 ·
BPOS said:
Hey Matt - Don't compromise. That's my advice. Get the 4L80E. You know how cool OD is. A T400 and and a 3.08 is giving away a BUNCH of gear.....maybe not a gigantic issue with eleventy billion lbs/ft of torque, but you're giving up significant gear at both ends and settling for the namby pamby middle, and I don't think you'll be ultimately happy. You're not building a drag racer, you're building a street car. And your motor would spit a Muncie out the tailpipes.....
Click to expand...

100% agree. As much fun as Matt has spending money, I figured he'd just buy both. 3.73 and a 1:1 top gear gets old very quickly, especially since CO has decent speed limits. That's another thing in the mountains....more gears is more fun.
 
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#60 ·
BPOS said:
Hey Matt - Don't compromise. That's my advice. Get the 4L80E. You know how cool OD is. A T400 and and a 3.08 is giving away a BUNCH of gear.....maybe not a gigantic issue with eleventy billion lbs/ft of torque, but you're giving up significant gear at both ends and settling for the namby pamby middle, and I don't think you'll be ultimately happy. You're not building a drag racer, you're building a street car. And your motor would spit a Muncie out the tailpipes.....go to your local drags and see how many are running a healthy 496 and a Muncie....nobody.
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I would disagree. The car would be faster with a T400 and my converter and a 3.08 gear, than it would be with the OD trans, now I understand most people will not understand this. Jake I can see this is going to turn into quite a debate, so I have a chevelle that I can put a 3.08 gear in, lets test it back to back, because I can see NO down side to running the 3.08 gear with the turbo 400 except giving up a little final drive gear ratio. Personally I cant see how a 10 sec driver can be called mamby pamby. And Jake I didnt want to bring this up but you know very well what one of your lighter weight OD trans combinations did to one of my customers car, and that was back to back. Now dont get me wrong I think Jakes OD trans are fine for most peoples applications, just not behind my 496s it takes 90 hours of labor to machine, build and dyno, I dont want my engines slowed down. Alans 3730 pound steel rimmed, air conditioned, fully loaded 3.08 geared turbo 400 496 equiped 10 second DRIVER Vette is the final word here. Lets do the test, it the right thing to do Jake.
 
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