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700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

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#82 ·
#85 ·
Skeeter55 said:
Is this the same 4L80E as you sell Jake, and would this trans hold up behind a 498... Of course with a 3500rpm stall.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/pts/1855991306.html
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I do several improvements when I build the 4L80Es. A stock 4L80E, like a stock Th400, will run into trouble at about 450-500 HP/TQ with the 3rd gear clutches.

I rollerize several locations, take care of some other weak areas, and replace some items that are wear items but not commonly replaced during rebuild.

A remanufactured trans is just a stock rebuild, and sometimes not a good one at that.
 
#86 ·
jakeshoe said:
I do several improvements when I build the 4L80Es. A stock 4L80E, like a stock Th400, will run into trouble at about 450-500 HP/TQ with the 3rd gear clutches.

I rollerize several locations, take care of some other weak areas, and replace some items that are wear items but not commonly replaced during rebuild.

A remanufactured trans is just a stock rebuild, and sometimes not a good one at that.
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Thank you and good to know... This thread is helping me make my decision from a verity of trans and opinions. I do like the builds of your 4L80E stage 3 for my set up and have confirmed it with some friends. Nice trans and when its time for me to do the swap you will be getting a call from me. Thanks Jake
 
#89 ·
jakeshoe said:
<Crickets chirping>

I guess Mark decided not to repsond to my question.

Are you or are you not a transmission builder Mark?

So are you misleading us here or the general public on your website?
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I dont build the turbo 400s , but I do have a builder I use, but availability of the turbo 400 cores I use are not available right now, but when they come available I will be selling them again. Falls coming, we will have to see how this turns out. Turbo 400 10 inch junk converter 10.67, Jakes OD trans and converter 11.11 minus 2 tenths for the air change. Easy 10.40s with a strait cut and a real converter.
 
#90 ·
I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without anyone mentioning that automatics are for women anyway. :p
 
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#92 ·
vortecpro said:
I dont build the turbo 400s , but I do have a builder I use, but availability of the turbo 400 cores I use are not available right now, but when they come available I will be selling them again. Falls coming, we will have to see how this turns out. Turbo 400 10 inch junk converter 10.67, Jakes OD trans and converter 11.11 minus 2 tenths for the air change. Easy 10.40s with a strait cut and a real converter.
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Mark,
You're still talking theory and not actual data.

Easy 10.40's is a theory. 10.67 in good air vs. 11.11 in bad air on a new combo is real data.
We'll see how it works out in the fall.

You send trey "your" converter, I'll build him a TH400 or have Garrett do so, test it for track times, and you provide the 3.08's rear and we'll see how much it slows down.

If your trans guy can't source straight cut planets, have him call me. I have access to hundreds of sets and have a few sets on the shelf. I use the stronger helical cut set on 99% of my builds.
GM used straight cut planets for a very specific reason, it wasn't because they were stronger.
 
#93 ·
"Helical gears offer a refinement over spur gears. The leading edges of the teeth are not parallel to the axis of rotation, but are set at an angle. Since the gear is curved, this angling causes the tooth shape to be a segment of a helix. Helical gears can be meshed in a parallel or crossed orientations. The former refers to when the shafts are parallel to each other; this is the most common orientation. In the latter, the shafts are non-parallel.

The angled teeth engage more gradually than do spur gear teeth causing them to run more smoothly and quietly. With parallel helical gears, each pair of teeth first make contact at a single point at one side of the gear wheel; a moving curve of contact then grows gradually across the tooth face to a maximum then recedes until the teeth break contact at a single point on the opposite side. In spur gears teeth suddenly meet at a line contact across their entire width causing stress and noise. Spur gears make a characteristic whine at high speeds and can not take as much torque as helical gears. Whereas spur gears are used for low speed applications and those situations where noise control is not a problem, the use of helical gears is indicated when the application involves high speeds, large power transmission, or where noise abatement is important. The speed is considered to be high when the pitch line velocity exceeds 25 m/s.[5]

A disadvantage of helical gears is a resultant thrust along the axis of the gear, which needs to be accommodated by appropriate thrust bearings, and a greater degree of sliding friction between the meshing teeth, often addressed with additives in the lubricant.

For a crossed configuration the gears must have the same pressure angle and normal pitch, however the helix angle and handedness can be different. The relationship between the two shafts is actually defined by the helix angle(s) of the two shafts and the handedness, as defined:[6"

Above from Wikpedia. Helical gears are stronger, but will place more load on the end condition of the gears. If the overall loading can be compensated for the trans will be stronger. A good example would be the Muncie family of transmissions. The stock case will not handle the loads from a helical cut gear, therefore the strait cut gears were designed to reduce case loading and therefore produce a stronger trans. Ford toploaders have helical cut gears and cast iron cases, and are very hard to break.
 
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#94 ·
67econobox said:
Above from Wikpedia. Helical gears are stronger, but will place more load on the end condition of the gears. If the overall loading can be compensated for the trans will be stronger. A good example would be the Muncie family of transmissions. The stock case will not handle the loads from a helical cut gear, therefore the strait cut gears were designed to reduce case loading and therefore produce a stronger trans. Ford toploaders have helical cut gears and cast iron cases, and are very hard to break.
Click to expand...
Muncies never used straight cut gears.

They changed the gear angle for the M22 (still helical) to a lesser angle.

The thrust loading of helical gears is easily compensated for in a TH400, 4L80E, etc. It's one of the mods we make on every unit we build.
 
#95 ·
"I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without anyone mentioning that automatics are for women anyway."

Well said Steiner!!


Jake,
I was not disagreeing with you, I am in total agreement about the strength of helical gears and your mods to improve stock reliability. I would not hesitate to have you build a trans for me! There just seems to be a general misunderstanding (not by you) of what the advantages and disadvantages of strait cut gears are. A lot of people assume that because some race cars use strait cut gears, they are stronger than Helical cut gears. There is an engineering reason for using different gears for different purposes, and the better people understand the why's and what-fore's the better they can make good decisions on what trans to run, and more importantly who to listen to. I am sorry, but I have seen a lot of people mislead by people that don't understand things themselves. These cars are our babies, and it is always a shame to see people go through broken parts and loads of money when a little knowledge could have prevented it. That is not to say they will listen...
 
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#96 ·
67econobox said:
"Helical gears offer a refinement over spur gears. The leading edges of the teeth are not parallel to the axis of rotation, but are set at an angle. Since the gear is curved, this angling causes the tooth shape to be a segment of a helix. Helical gears can be meshed in a parallel or crossed orientations. The former refers to when the shafts are parallel to each other; this is the most common orientation. In the latter, the shafts are non-parallel.

The angled teeth engage more gradually than do spur gear teeth causing them to run more smoothly and quietly. With parallel helical gears, each pair of teeth first make contact at a single point at one side of the gear wheel; a moving curve of contact then grows gradually across the tooth face to a maximum then recedes until the teeth break contact at a single point on the opposite side. In spur gears teeth suddenly meet at a line contact across their entire width causing stress and noise. Spur gears make a characteristic whine at high speeds and can not take as much torque as helical gears. Whereas spur gears are used for low speed applications and those situations where noise control is not a problem, the use of helical gears is indicated when the application involves high speeds, large power transmission, or where noise abatement is important. The speed is considered to be high when the pitch line velocity exceeds 25 m/s.[5]

A disadvantage of helical gears is a resultant thrust along the axis of the gear, which needs to be accommodated by appropriate thrust bearings, and a greater degree of sliding friction between the meshing teeth, often addressed with additives in the lubricant.

For a crossed configuration the gears must have the same pressure angle and normal pitch, however the helix angle and handedness can be different. The relationship between the two shafts is actually defined by the helix angle(s) of the two shafts and the handedness, as defined:[6"

Above from Wikpedia. Helical gears are stronger, but will place more load on the end condition of the gears. If the overall loading can be compensated for the trans will be stronger. A good example would be the Muncie family of transmissions. The stock case will not handle the loads from a helical cut gear, therefore the strait cut gears were designed to reduce case loading and therefore produce a stronger trans. Ford toploaders have helical cut gears and cast iron cases, and are very hard to break.
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I dont think I ever said a strait cut planatary was stronger, everybody has their own way of doing things, I have my reasons for using the strait cuts. I dont want to try to change anyones mind on this, I do recommend this to my customers and it works.
 
#97 ·
vortecpro said:
I dont think I ever said a strait cut planatary was stronger, everybody has their own way of doing things, I have my reasons for using the strait cuts. I dont want to try to change anyones mind on this, I do recommend this to my customers and it works.
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If you aren't a trans builder, why are you making recommendations about the build to your customers.

It sounds like the blind leading the blind.

Let those that specialize in transmissions make that decision.
 
#98 ·
jakeshoe said:
If you aren't a trans builder, why are you making recommendations about the build to your customers.

It sounds like the blind leading the blind.

Let those that specialize in transmissions make that decision.
Click to expand...
You made a recommendation to Trey and it took his car from a 10.67 to an 11.11, why dont you just leave it alone, wait for October and lets see what happens, if his car can run 10.60s I will give you all the credit you deserve, but remember this, those 10.60s came from a ******* 10 inch conveter and a very heavy turbo 400, so theres another 2.5 tenths in a strait cut 400 with a nice converter, 10.67 minus .25 = 10.42. Really, and this is theory 10.42 to 11.11. Why dont we test your trans and converter in my car back to back with my trans and converter, if its faster Ill buy it right there and recommend it to my customers.
 
#99 ·
vortecpro said:
You made a recommendation to Trey and it took his car from a 10.67 to an 11.11, why dont you just leave it alone, wait for October and lets see what happens, if his car can run 10.60s I will give you all the credit you deserve, but remember this, those 10.60s came from a ******* 10 inch conveter and a very heavy turbo 400, so theres another 2.5 tenths in a strait cut 400 with a nice converter, 10.67 minus .25 = 10.42. Really, and this is theory 10.42 to 11.11. Why dont we test your trans and converter in my car back to back with my trans and converter, if its faster Ill buy it right there and recommend it to my customers.
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You're making assumptions that the ******* converter is junk. I've talked to several converter guys (*******'s competition) and even they claim the converters are not bad.
The worst thing they had to say about them was the ugly mounting pads but they admitted that was aesthetic more than a functional concern.
I don't know anything about Trey's old converter, I do know that we left some potential ET on the table with converter selection but not much. It's very efficient and the flash rpm of 4200 could be higher for strip usage but that depends on where peak torque is occuring on your engine build (keep in mind the converter was also built for his old combo).
I'm pretty sure Trey will see the 10.6x ETs again and hopefully better. If not we'll restall his converter for free if he wants to do that.

The trans I recommended for Trey's car was a 4L80E. It's a full weight Chevelle capable of running 10's.
Are you sure you want to make that wager?
That's a $3500+ package with converter.
I can afford to make that bet....
are you willing to sign a contract to purchase?
 
#100 ·
jakeshoe said:
You're making assumptions that the ******* converter is junk. I've talked to several converter guys (*******'s competition) and even they claim the converters are not bad.
The worst thing they had to say about them was the ugly mounting pads but they admitted that was aesthetic more than a functional concern.
I don't know anything about Trey's old converter, I do know that we left some potential ET on the table with converter selection but not much. It's very efficient and the flash rpm of 4200 could be higher for strip usage but that depends on where peak torque is occuring on your engine build (keep in mind the converter was also built for his old combo).
I'm pretty sure Trey will see the 10.6x ETs again and hopefully better. If not we'll restall his converter for free if he wants to do that.

The trans I recommended for Trey's car was a 4L80E. It's a full weight Chevelle capable of running 10's.
Are you sure you want to make that wager?
That's a $3500+ package with converter.
I can afford to make that bet....
are you willing to sign a contract to purchase?
Click to expand...
I think we should duplicate Treys combo with my car 496 turbo 400 my converter, 3.73 gear, against your OD setup, I think this would tell us what we want to know, the drive shaft might be an issue. You can pick the shift points for your trans, and we can verify them with the data logger. If your faster Im buying thats the deal, infact we could have someone hold the money, but what do I get if Im faster? If you want to come to Colo I dont need anything, well just do it.
 
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