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rad454

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
There's an interesting thread entitled "6.0L LS or big block" which has been very informative. There are some good arguments for both.

One response in particular caught my attention. A member asked the poster if he considered increasing performance with a pair of high performance aluminum heads over the stock oval ports.

I have a mild BBC with roller cam, stock oval ports (not peanut) and 9.2:1 compression. It pulls hard but I often wondered what the car would feel like with some upgraded heads. Would it be worth the effort/money to upgrade?
 
Indeed. I'd say another 15-25% HP or more with better heads. Brodix has some nice ovals,..RR-BB-O's (they're claiming 90 additional HP,..maybe not that much but they're great heads):

http://www.brodix.com/heads/raceritebb.html

The Race Rites (Brodix) have stock location exhaust ports which makes header fitment a breeze. This hurts the exhaust flow a bit so consider a dual pattern cam.

AFR is now making an oval port head,..about $2800~ for the pair vs. $2200~ for the Race Rites. I'm sure they're pretty dang good. They have raised exhaust ports (.375"?) which could cause some clearance problems, though AFR says it "shouldn't".

I have some GM Performance ovals on a 496 build. They're called "roval" ports which is means "hogged out ovals". They're rebranded Edelbrocks and they're great. Make sure to get the corresponding port matching intake.

A few others are making ovals as well, but regardless, a good set of heads is good place to invest if HP is your thing.

Good luck!
 
Stock oval ports when ported right can support good power.
Search for VortecPro (Mark) he's built a lot a 454 and bigger BBcs with stock oval ports he ported and some make over 700hp on pump gas.
 
Yip...bit of porting and bigger valves for half the cost of a new set of heads will get you just about the same power. Only down fall would be the weight savings if thats important to you....if not stick with what you have.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Apparently, Texans like everything big, including their heads.

15-25% is a substantial increase in performance. I was not aware that a simple change in higher flowing heads would drive it up that high.

A follow up question. What would the effect be on the rest of the system? If you go with bigger/higher flowing heads, would you have to compensate in another area? Bigger carb, hotter ignition etc.
 
I would predict a 25 hp increase with a good set of aluminum heads
because the 409 and 781 ovals are good heads.

But the benefits of removing 80 pounds from the front end are huge. If
you are just driving a street cruiser it's not important, but if you want to beat Fred Ficarra it's a must ! :beers:
 
Apparently, Texans like everything big, including their heads.

A follow up question. What would the effect be on the rest of the system? If you go with bigger/higher flowing heads, would you have to compensate in another area? Bigger carb, hotter ignition etc.
you should see my SB heads:D

Everything need to be sized right to feed X cubes at X rpm to make X hp.
So things like exhaust ignition fuel systems need to be able to support the hp you want.
 
I would predict a 25 hp increase with a good set of aluminum heads
because the 409 and 781 ovals are good heads.

But the benefits of removing 80 pounds from the front end are huge. If
you are just driving a street cruiser it's not important, but if you want to beat Fred Ficarra it's a must ! :beers:
No way Beth!:D
Bring it on!!!
Now seriously, back when my car was brand new I couldn't even buy a front end alignment job because the grease monkey at the shop said my springs were flat. Brand new! Within a week I'd scored aluminum heads and never looked back. Now I'm on the second set. These are open chambered of course.
One disadvantage comes to mind. The car sits too high in front. Forty one years old and the original springs are too tall. But it's hard to mess with them because the paper tags are still on one of them.
But lordy, a couple of years ago Hotrod Magazine ran a story comparing 10 engine swaps and their performance result in an early Chevelle. When the car received it's first BBC, Marlin Davis wrote that the car could not be expected to pull wheelies anymore. Well, readers of Hotrod know that Marlin isn't a fan of BBC's. He wrote recently that BBC's won't rev past 6K.
I usually shift around 6500 but the engine seems happy no matter what I do. Last race the car did 6 wheelie runs in a row. Two of those runs lifted both wheels.And get this: the throttle is restricted to a maximum of about 15% opening because the race-track operators laid down the law; slow down. The car is original steel with 1973 aluminum head castings. Of course the ports are rectangular and hugeXhumoungous. That could cause some drivability problems with a carb. Yesterday I was playing with the tune. A new fuel map was uploaded to the ECU. The engine seemed stable enough so I crawled under the car with it running. After 10 minutes everything seemed cool but the engine was running slower than normal. I peeked at the PC and it showed the engine was running at 800rpm. Whoa. But get this. The vacuum being pulled was 3"! That's FI for ya. And a solid roller too. It's from HD Harold via Lunati.
 

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We are talking about a Mid Range Displacement BBC here right; say 427 to 468 CI, which like to Rev. Take into consideration the type of Lifter used in respect to the heavy BBC Valve train components.

HFT Max Revs 6200 rpm
HR Max Revs 6200 rpm
SFT Max Revs 6800+ rpm
SR Max Revs 7000+ rpm

Of course the more the RPM the more Air Volume is required and the Motor’s Rotating Assembly has to be built in accordance where Strength is proportional to RPM .

After market Piston are Generally designed to be use with OEM Spec’d Engines and Castings; for instance, if you want say 9.5:1 Static compression in a 454 you would choose the Piston to match the Head such as: 113cc 820 Casting with 13.8cc Domed L2399 Piston, the 118cc 781 Casting with the L2465F 25.7 cc Domed Piston and say the 122cc 049 OEM Head Casting with the larger Domed 29.4 cc ZL2349F Piston – All achieve approx 9.5:1 Static. You can shuffle the components to achieve the desired Static; for instance, the 820 Heads with the L2465F should yield approx 10.5:1 Static Compression all the way up to 12.5:1 with say the 820 Heads and ZL2349F Piston … etc; in which case, go Rectangular Port and Racing Gas and your Ride is no longer a Car but a TOY. You will never convince me a 10 Second Ride is comfortable on the Street or for cursing.

Stands to reason the Higher the Static Compression, the Bigger the Cam, the Higher the Air Flow demand there is where the SFT and SR Forged Assembled will survive.

If you're not concerned about weight the Large Oval Port Cast OEM Casting is just fine with Hydraulic Lifters as the engine can’t go beyond 6200 rpm anyway. If you work the Large Oval Port by adding Bigger Valves, Bowl Porting and minor Runner Porting they will feed either a 427 or 454 to 7000 rpm in a SFT or SR Built Mill.

Considering the expense of to days machining to rebuild OEM Heads it may be wise to go After Market and purchase something like the Elelbrock 454-0 Alu-Heads with a 110cc Chamber for approx $1,100 which out flow the OEM Casting and mount them over either the L2399 or L2465F Piston (Pending Desired Static Compression) - Plus what you gain in say 30 Hp, you gain in Hp to Weight Ratio and Handling.

You can not compare the Mid Size Hi Revving 427 to 468 CI BBC Mills with the larger Displacement Torque Monsters like the 496 to 572 Plus Displacement Mills that are rarely built to exceed 6000 rpm and the HSR is suitable. I consider it Sac-Religious to use HSR lifters in a 427 or 454.

And at the Strip, you require Alu-Heads to compete with Fred and use a Vega Shell to beat him. I know he has a 10 runner but he's not disclosing it ;o)
 
HFT Max Revs 6200 rpm
HR Max Revs 6200 rpm
SFT Max Revs 6800+ rpm
SR Max Revs 7000+ rpm

Hydraulic Lifters as the engine can’t go beyond 6200 rpm anyway.
what about HR bbc that rev 6800-7000rpm, dont leave us out;)
 
what about HR bbc that rev 6800-7000rpm, dont leave us out
Yes I will as your looking for destruction unless you have spent considerable money for Sodium Filled Titanium Valves (I run Manley Pro Flow Severe Duty Ultra Lights in a SR System). The HR Lifter still has the same inherent properties as the HFT Lifter. I'm not saying you will not achieve Higher Revs due to the Cam's Profile but it is pushing the limit of Hydraulic Design. How can you get that High in revs with a 150 Lb Seat and 400 Lb Open Spring Pressure (I run 210/515 Lb Springs with .630/.655" lifts using the 781 OEM Castings) unless you run Paper Weight Valves as Hydraulic lifter will collapse and attempt to operate as a solid creating harmonics that will eventually destroy the Valve Train.

Perhaps for a Second or 2 at the Strip but for Endurance - Forget It.

As I point out - What is the Engine to be used for. Canyon Racing and Grocery Getting is my fortier and have run a 454 SR with a Jomar Pro Girdle/Donovan Cam Gear Drive for years between 4000 and 7000 rpm for hours on end without failure - The engine puts out a modest 625Hp on Pump Gas and my ride is a Car and TOY. It will NOT do a 10 sec 1/4 with a M21/3.31 Gears, perhaps 11 or 12 secs and I don't care but Vipers and Ferrera's do ;o)

You should see some of the Cars built by Enthusiasts for the North American Canada, mine is one of them - What the H*ll is a Drag Strip an 1/8 mile at that local AirPort - Forget It - The Entries look like Wheel Barrels.

Yeh I'm Blunt; but been there for too many years - Take It or leave It - BUT It's Sac-Religious to put a HR in a 427 or 454 - :eek:))
 
Yes I will as your looking for destruction unless you have spent considerable money for Sodium Filled Titanium Valves. The HR Lifter still has the same inherent properties as the HFT Lifter. I'm not saying you will not achieve Higher Revs due to the Cam's Profile but it is pushing the limit of Hydraulic Design. How can you get that High in revs with a 150 Lb Seat and 400 Lb Open Spring Pressure unless you run Paper Weight Valves as Hydraulic lifter will collapse and attempt to operate as a Solid creating harmonics that will eventually destroy the Valve Train.

Perhaps for a Second or 2 at the Strip but for Endurance - Forget It.

As I point out - What is the Engine to be used for. Canyon Racing and Grocery Getting is my fortier and have run a 454 SR with a Stud Girdle/ Dovovan Cam Gear Drive for years between 4000 and 7000 rpm for hours on end without failure - The Engine puts out a modest 625Hp on Pump Gas and my ride is a Car and TOY. It will not do a 10 sec 1/4, perhaps 11 or 12 secs and I don't care but Vipers and Ferrera's do ;o)
Ron, have I thanked you this week for all the help you gave me setting up this roller?:bow:
 
shorter strock = less stress on the rotating assm.
but yea, the vavetrain is usually the limiting actor, especially on mild builds.
 
Well may be them Young PUP's at Popular Hot Rodding will Hire and Pay me - Just to be On-Line - I have more exposure here and direct products with honest opinions and expect the same rebuttal from Experience Members - Sadly most knowledgeable keen are not as Computer Literate as I am.
 
There's an interesting thread entitled "6.0L LS or big block" which has been very informative. There are some good arguments for both.

One response in particular caught my attention. A member asked the poster if he considered increasing performance with a pair of high performance aluminum heads over the stock oval ports.

I have a mild BBC with roller cam, stock oval ports (not peanut) and 9.2:1 compression. It pulls hard but I often wondered what the car would feel like with some upgraded heads. Would it be worth the effort/money to upgrade?
Take a look at GM's crate motors...the 454HO and the ZZ454. Same exact shortblock, cam and all. Only difference is the heads, GM rec ports vs the Eddy/GMPP alum heads. Compression goes from 8.75:1 to 9.6:1 due to the smaller chambers on the GMPP heads (but compression is really more like 9.2:1 as the pistons are below deck height). Anyway, the the 454HO dyno's conservatively at 440-450hp. the ZZ454 dyno's at around 490. So your looking at a 40-50hp gain, plus 70lbs off the front end. This is with a 211/230 .511/540 cam mind you. I would guess a stiffer cam would yeild even larger gains.
 
We are talking about a Mid Range Displacement BBC here right; say 427 to 468 CI, which like to Rev. Take into consideration the type of Lifter used in respect to the heavy BBC Valve train components.

HFT Max Revs 6200 rpm
HR Max Revs 6200 rpm
SFT Max Revs 6800+ rpm
SR Max Revs 7000+ rpm

Of course the more the RPM the more Air Volume is required and the Motor’s Rotating Assembly has to be built in accordance where Strength is proportional to RPM .

After market Piston are Generally designed to be use with OEM Spec’d Engines and Castings; for instance, if you want say 9.5:1 Static compression in a 454 you would choose the Piston to match the Head such as: 113cc 820 Casting with 13.8cc Domed L2399 Piston, the 118cc 781 Casting with the L2465F 25.7 cc Domed Piston and say the 122cc 049 OEM Head Casting with the larger Domed 29.4 cc ZL2349F Piston – All achieve approx 9.5:1 Static. You can shuffle the components to achieve the desired Static; for instance, the 820 Heads with the L2465F should yield approx 10.5:1 Static Compression all the way up to 12.5:1 with say the 820 Heads and ZL2349F Piston … etc; in which case, go Rectangular Port and Racing Gas and your Ride is no longer a Car but a TOY. You will never convince me a 10 Second Ride is comfortable on the Street or for cursing.

Stands to reason the Higher the Static Compression, the Bigger the Cam, the Higher the Air Flow demand there is where the SFT and SR Forged Assembled will survive.

If you're not concerned about weight the Large Oval Port Cast OEM Casting is just fine with Hydraulic Lifters as the engine can’t go beyond 6200 rpm anyway. If you work the Large Oval Port by adding Bigger Valves, Bowl Porting and minor Runner Porting they will feed either a 427 or 454 to 7000 rpm in a SFT or SR Built Mill.

Considering the expense of to days machining to rebuild OEM Heads it may be wise to go After Market and purchase something like the Elelbrock 454-0 Alu-Heads with a 110cc Chamber for approx $1,100 which out flow the OEM Casting and mount them over either the L2399 or L2465F Piston (Pending Desired Static Compression) - Plus what you gain in say 30 Hp, you gain in Hp to Weight Ratio and Handling.

You can not compare the Mid Size Hi Revving 427 to 468 CI BBC Mills with the larger Displacement Torque Monsters like the 496 to 572 Plus Displacement Mills that are rarely built to exceed 6000 rpm and the HSR is suitable. I consider it Sac-Religious to use HSR lifters in a 427 or 454.

And at the Strip, you require Alu-Heads to compete with Fred and use a Vega Shell to beat him. I know he has a 10 runner but he's not disclosing it ;o)
(You will never convince me a 10 sec car is comfordable on the street or for cruising) What about Alans (Shouldnt be there) Corvette? :yes:
 
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