And you could get info like PHS documents? Can you imagine how many cloned SS's and Z-28's would show up? Value of real cars would jump. Just a fantasy of mine.......
What if GM found the records
1 reading
OK69
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
There would be alot of upset Camaro owners that thought the car they bought was the "real thing". Wonder how many real '69 Z's are out there today.........and how many clones??......
Joined
·
244 Posts
Been a rumor for quite awhile, but I'm sure coming from the people I've heard it from that it will happen. IMO, it would be great. There are too many scammers ripping people off making it harder and harder to identify the real cars.
Joined
·
2,938 Posts
This has been beaten to death over the years. Here's the truth.
This article appeared in the National Corvette Restorer Society's "The Corvette Restorer" magazine, Volume twenty-seven, number three, Winter 2001 issue. It's an excellent article with insight into the existence of, or lack there of, Corvette build records written by a retired GM employee.
Terry McManmon has asked me to write this for The Corvette Restorer with the intention that it may put to rest some, if not all, of the speculation about the Corvette build records. I worked for GM for 37 years and retired November 1, 1999; 24 years were at Chevrolet Engineering and the rest for GM Legal Staff. During this time, I became an expert on GM records, especially the Corvette, as it was my primary research vehicle. I therefore can speak with some authority on the subject.
About four years ago, Jim Perkins, then General Manager of Chevrolet Motor Division, put me and another employee on a Special Assignment to search anywhere and everywhere within GM for the Corvette and Camaro build records that have been so sought after. We spent two months searching the bowels of GM including dusty old warehouses, assembly plants, GMAC, financial departments, accounting departments and many other departments within GM that we thought might have a remote chance of having such documents. We also searched outside GM storage facilities such as Leonard Brothers Archives in Detroit and the Boyers storage facility in Pennsylvania that contained GM data. This was an all encompassing, no holds barred, search that Mr. Perkins authorized. We used his name and position to gain access to various departments. The departments then queried their employees and searched their files and reported to us. Since the request was from the boss, they responded thoroughly and promptly. We then followed up on any promising leads.
The results of our search will not please the Corvette world (and didn't please us either) as we were NOT able to locate the Mother Lode!!! We did find a few production records (about 2 1/2 years worth), not build sheets, back to mid-year 1976. GM already had (has) them back to about 1978.
Although the Corvette was and still is, a low production vehicle, the Engineering Records (of which the build records are just one) were NOT kept separately from other Chevrolet vehicles lines, i.e. Camaro, Corvair, trucks, etc. Chevrolet produced more vehicles than all the other GM divisions combined, and therefore generated a much higher volume of records which were a storage problem.
After final year production, the build records have very little business value to Chevrolet and therefore were not considered to be high priority for retention. GM record retention policy required the assembly plants to retain said documents for only about six months. Some records (including build sheets) were retained longer at the Corvette assembly plants, St. Louis and Flint. However, when Corvette production ceased at these locations, the records were pitched. It should be noted that the current Corvette Assembly Plant in Bowling Green, KY, retained the 1981 - present vehicle manifests that are available now through the NCM. This was against all odds, as there were many movements over the years within GM to destroy them because they had no business value to GM.
Meanwhile, back at the Tech Center in Warren, Michigan, the Chevrolet Engineering Records Retention Policy called for periodic destrcution of non-essential records, of which the build documents were one, and this was carried out on a routine basis. The other GM divisions, Cadillac, Pontiac, etc., had much smaller production volumens and interpreted the GM Records Retention Policy differently and therefore retained said documents.
GM Legal Staff did not and does not dictate the retention period of documents. GM has a procedure manual which outlines retention periods for various documents. GM Legal Staff does require retention of specific documents that are involved in litigation, but that concludes as the litigation ends.
Art Armstrong
artarmstrong@comcast.net
NCRS Member #14981
NCM Founding Member #1268
Owner and restorer (frame-off restoration) of a 1965 L76 Roadster
P.S. I don't have my Corvette's build records either!!!
This article appeared in the National Corvette Restorer Society's "The Corvette Restorer" magazine, Volume twenty-seven, number three, Winter 2001 issue. It's an excellent article with insight into the existence of, or lack there of, Corvette build records written by a retired GM employee.
Terry McManmon has asked me to write this for The Corvette Restorer with the intention that it may put to rest some, if not all, of the speculation about the Corvette build records. I worked for GM for 37 years and retired November 1, 1999; 24 years were at Chevrolet Engineering and the rest for GM Legal Staff. During this time, I became an expert on GM records, especially the Corvette, as it was my primary research vehicle. I therefore can speak with some authority on the subject.
About four years ago, Jim Perkins, then General Manager of Chevrolet Motor Division, put me and another employee on a Special Assignment to search anywhere and everywhere within GM for the Corvette and Camaro build records that have been so sought after. We spent two months searching the bowels of GM including dusty old warehouses, assembly plants, GMAC, financial departments, accounting departments and many other departments within GM that we thought might have a remote chance of having such documents. We also searched outside GM storage facilities such as Leonard Brothers Archives in Detroit and the Boyers storage facility in Pennsylvania that contained GM data. This was an all encompassing, no holds barred, search that Mr. Perkins authorized. We used his name and position to gain access to various departments. The departments then queried their employees and searched their files and reported to us. Since the request was from the boss, they responded thoroughly and promptly. We then followed up on any promising leads.
The results of our search will not please the Corvette world (and didn't please us either) as we were NOT able to locate the Mother Lode!!! We did find a few production records (about 2 1/2 years worth), not build sheets, back to mid-year 1976. GM already had (has) them back to about 1978.
Although the Corvette was and still is, a low production vehicle, the Engineering Records (of which the build records are just one) were NOT kept separately from other Chevrolet vehicles lines, i.e. Camaro, Corvair, trucks, etc. Chevrolet produced more vehicles than all the other GM divisions combined, and therefore generated a much higher volume of records which were a storage problem.
After final year production, the build records have very little business value to Chevrolet and therefore were not considered to be high priority for retention. GM record retention policy required the assembly plants to retain said documents for only about six months. Some records (including build sheets) were retained longer at the Corvette assembly plants, St. Louis and Flint. However, when Corvette production ceased at these locations, the records were pitched. It should be noted that the current Corvette Assembly Plant in Bowling Green, KY, retained the 1981 - present vehicle manifests that are available now through the NCM. This was against all odds, as there were many movements over the years within GM to destroy them because they had no business value to GM.
Meanwhile, back at the Tech Center in Warren, Michigan, the Chevrolet Engineering Records Retention Policy called for periodic destrcution of non-essential records, of which the build documents were one, and this was carried out on a routine basis. The other GM divisions, Cadillac, Pontiac, etc., had much smaller production volumens and interpreted the GM Records Retention Policy differently and therefore retained said documents.
GM Legal Staff did not and does not dictate the retention period of documents. GM has a procedure manual which outlines retention periods for various documents. GM Legal Staff does require retention of specific documents that are involved in litigation, but that concludes as the litigation ends.
Art Armstrong
artarmstrong@comcast.net
NCRS Member #14981
NCM Founding Member #1268
Owner and restorer (frame-off restoration) of a 1965 L76 Roadster
P.S. I don't have my Corvette's build records either!!!
Joined
·
379 Posts
"So you're telling me there's a chance..."Lloyd Christmas @1994
Joined
·
254 Posts
There has to be somebody out who physically PITCHED the records... right? Thats who we need to find... The best place to start is the people who had thier hands on them at the last possible minute...
Joined
·
224 Posts
I really dont know if it would add alot of value.. i had a Canadian documented rs/ss and the guy that bought it still didnt like the Canadian paper? I think we are to the point in this hobby we are going to doubt everything?
My Dad started me in this hobby when I was 12. I just turned 40 this year and every since I can remember the talk has been "they are going to release the records next year". I think that the GM legal department does not want to find the records because if they are released after all this time think about the potential lawsuits for holding back this information for so long and all the people that were scammed into buying fake cars. So with that being said I highly doubt that any records will EVER be released.
Brian
Brian
Nice to dream, but there's better odds of spotting Sasquatch riding the Loch Ness monster than these records turning up. It's all about the money. They would be worth money, so if in private hands they would have surfaced by now. And the costs of storage add up even if done internally, so you periodically clean house, especially at a large corporation. The last guy(s) who touched them probably didn't even know or care what they were any may not even be alive today. Also doubt if anyone would go dumpster diving for those type paper records back in the day either. Chevrolet would not have any legal liability to future owners if paperwork ever did ever show up all these years later, so there's nothing to hide on their part. Also if Chevrolet didn't place any value on them, they likely wouldn't pay a CPA, engineer, or manager to go dump or destroy them. I worked in the records storage business for almost 20 years, only very sensitive legal documents or classified material gets witnessed destruction, and probably even fewer did 40+ years ago. If GM already searched for them and came up empty, they are long gone.
But seriously, I'm hiding them along with microfiche copies in my basement. What do you need?
But seriously, I'm hiding them along with microfiche copies in my basement. What do you need?
Joined
·
2,938 Posts
This is from the article. Maybe you didn't read all of it.
"The other GM divisions, Cadillac, Pontiac, etc., had much smaller production volumes and interpreted the GM Records Retention Policy differently and therefore retained said documents."
I read it....I just don't buy it!....If they were not important, none of the GM records would have been kept....That is only one mans account!...Jim Mattison is not done with this!.....There is more to the story!
RM
Joined
·
6,832 Posts
I think Williams response in Post #6 above says it all. Those are not just some yahoos that did the searching.
Of course there will always be the conspiracy theorists out there bring this back to life every now and then.
BTW, The above response is very childish.
Of course there will always be the conspiracy theorists out there bring this back to life every now and then.
BTW, The above response is very childish.
Good to know that Jim Mattison is a "conspiracy theorists"....I'll make note of that....Thanks!
RM
Joined
·
1,049 Posts
What a can of worms this thread could open up...my two cents. It would be great if these documents were available as it would sure help clean up the hobby with all the fakes out there. The good news is despite the loss of all this paper by GM there are many people in the hobby who know these cars inside out and can help verify the pedigree. :thumbsup:
Joined
·
2,938 Posts
Ok, hows this for "constructive."
![Image]()
Many years ago I had a '69 Z/28 with no docs. I had the same idea about build records. In those days Chevy would respond to stuff like this. For 32 years I have been hearing how all these records are going to magically appear. Still waiting...
Many years ago I had a '69 Z/28 with no docs. I had the same idea about build records. In those days Chevy would respond to stuff like this. For 32 years I have been hearing how all these records are going to magically appear. Still waiting...
Joined
·
3,652 Posts
Very cool letter William. Was that the response you received to your personal letter in 1978?
Years ago I was researching date codes for Goodyear tires for 1969. I received a personal response from Goodyear. Don't ask. At the time I was only interested in one particular tire, and once I decoded it, I pitched the response. Doh!
Years ago I was researching date codes for Goodyear tires for 1969. I received a personal response from Goodyear. Don't ask. At the time I was only interested in one particular tire, and once I decoded it, I pitched the response. Doh!
Joined
·
2,938 Posts
Yup. I had just purchased N516615 from the 2nd owner [$1000!]. He had nothing for it but the receipt from the original owner. Of course I called him, hardly remembered it.
It is still around, Ohio last I knew. Now I get the calls looking for paperwork.
It is still around, Ohio last I knew. Now I get the calls looking for paperwork.
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
