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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Okay let me get this straigt. I've got an Edelbrock 1407 in my 85 iroc. My vacum advanced needs to be hooked up on the left port
I'm not familiar with how the Edelbrocks are ported, but you want it connected to whichever port provides full manifold vacuum (sometimes called "full-time" vacuum) at idle, not the one that's a "ported" vacuum source, with little or no vacuum at idle. :)

:beers:
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Thanks NB,..yes, very low vacuum conditions remove vacuum advance functionality.

But the question above wasn't how VA was 'turned off', but why.

John Z believes it's necessary for differing burns speeds of differing AF ratios.

I thought it had more to do with combustion temps and pressure caused by WOT coupled with load, which produce pre-ignition.

I'm thinking we both may be right but wanted his angle.

John Z,..you still out there?
There are lots of factors influencing what the optimum timing should be under many diverse operating conditions, most of which have been mentioned in the last few posts above; the challenge in the 60's was to develop simple and reliable mechanical systems that although separate, would complement each other and manage ignition timing based on both engine rpm and load without resulting in engine damage. The result was the combined centrifugal and vacuum advance systems, which worked amazingly well for decades considering their simplicity. Those systems are also relatively simple to tune, IF you understand how they work and what they're supposed to do, and understand that the rules are different between street cars and race cars.

The onset of emissions requirements began to complicate the ignition equations, and subverted the centrifugal and vacuum advance systems into doing things they were never intended to do, most of which reduced driveability and efficiency.

Catalytic converter technology overcame many of those problems, and the ultimate solution that we enjoy in our daily drivers today came as a result of computer technology that senses, measures, and changes both A/F ratios and ignition timing maps hundreds of times per second and compensates instantly for temperature, altitude, load, onset of detonation at any level, and self-learns the driver's habits, and you can tune them with a laptop without getting your hands dirty. That's progress. :)

:beers:
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Jonn Z what is manifold vacuun hooked to? What about the ajustable distributors like this? www.professional-products.com
Manifold vacuum is connected to the vacuum advance diaphragm on the distributor. The distributor in the link allows you to change static timing without using a timing light; it has the same centrifugal and vacuum advance systems as any GM distributor. Fixed your link.

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JohnZ;

I'm posting this just to give testament to what you have stated here. I implemented the change to full manifold vacuum and adjusted the timing and mixture on my GMPP 350 / 350 hp crate motor with FAST EzEFI and what a difference! Smoother idle, more responsive throttle, cooler and better mileage. I'm in Denver and the engines run lean to start with up here and my idle was always unstable. Now, it sits at 750 without much variation with 12 deg static / 25 deg with 13 " vacuum. 36 deg total timing w/o vacuum. Air Fuel ratios at idle = 13.8:1 AF, 14.8:1 at cruise and 13.8:1 WOT....all on regular gas.... lovin it!

Thanks John!!!

Bob
 
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Air Fuel ratios at idle = 13.8:1 AF, 14.8:1 at cruise and 13.8:1 WOT....all on regular gas.... lovin it!
For petrol you are looking at around 14.6 /14.7
The idle can be leaned out a little... within reason, lean mixtures require more advance. At least 115.1 to about 15.3....big economy savings to be made while sitting at interections.
Cruise again can be leaned out further...that is the basic concept of the VA add a few degs of advance for the leaner cruise mixture....u are only looking at 10 to 15 hp requirement to cruise...so around 15.1 to 15.3

Under power WOT dont even risk leaning..hi temps /kill engines
And more power is made with a far more richer mixture...getting down into the 11.5 to 12.5 AFR range....the richer the mixture...withing reason gives more power.

If messing around with data loggers /AFRs get the timing in ball park, re jet/powervalves etc the carb.....fine tune the timing curves and VA....MAY have to re set the catb again.. but generally once at this stage mixtures are pretty spot on... or close enough for a good street machine....influences like ambiant temps altitude will have more influnence from this point.
 
I understand the vacuum advance at idle and high vacuum part throtle helping with the cooling and performance. But just a thought/question, since my combination is basically a drag motor (800 hp-540) and likes the locked out set up at start up and idle. Would running it locked out w/ the vacuum advance functioning for the part throttle advance work the same? I changed it back to centrifigual advance 12 deg. inital and 32 total and made my heat problem worse plus it just didn't seem to like it, harder to start, more cold natured etc. I went back to lock out setup and set it at 36 total and the heat problem got better and the motor was more "snappy" which tells me it may need more during part throtle cruise. I just ordered the same dizzy that I have except it has a vacuum advance and it is possible to set it up that way. Figured I would try the vacuum advance before I go the bigger radiator way - it's cheaper this way too if it works. :D
 
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I'd run the vacuum advance. Even at the drags, your engine spends a lot of time running at less than wide open throttle (returning, staging, tuning, etc).

At WOT, vacuum advance is out of play so there's no penalty for running it.
 
I'd run the vacuum advance. Even at the drags, your engine spends a lot of time running at less than wide open throttle (returning, staging, tuning, etc).
On the other hand this is done in lower gears with very high rear diff ratios, So manovering locked out dedicated track cars is done at rpms higher than the ave street strip car....generally they have moved to magnitos anyway....
But your point is still raliveint and not incorrect.
 
I suggested that VA was ok at the drags, because at idle (sittin' around idling happened way too much at the tracks I raced), the extra 10-12 degrees of timing would help keep the engine a bit cooler.

No big deal either way at the track.

But on the street,..
 
Chassis dyno mech locked mine out for runs and I used almost twice as much gas on the way home compared to having vac.adv. working prior to ! I guess I'll have to chg it back for normal driving !
I had a total of 54 deg with it connected so I guess I need to chg the shim to bring total down ?
 
I had a total of 54 deg with it connected so I guess I need to chg the shim to bring total down ?
54 all in ..yep many stock dizzies have such total, and on the surface seems one hell of a lot....then one get down to thinking it thru in the real world.
Generally these cent curves are all in around 4000 /4500 rpms
The VA is working between around 10 and 16"

As the cars speed increases, there is a larger load on the engine to movethe mass at that speed, and over come aerodynamics....which means the 18 or 20" of cruise engine vac at around 40/50 mph starts to drop....rather quickly down to 14" /15"
Which mow meand the VA is dropping out.
Which means the engine doesnt ever get up to or even near the 54 degs.

Which comes back to what I keep on repeating, one need to know exactly what the wengine vaccuun charactorists are with a in car vac gauge.
AND the high adance dizzies tend to be post pionts dizzies, which I keep on saying, are very different to pre HeI mid 70s dizzies....
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
I seen that very same write up on another site?????
Yup - I wrote it originally as a paper in early 2003, shared it on several different forums, and later dressed it up, expanded it, and published it as a feature article in the November, 2003 issue of "Corvette Enthusiast" magazine, when I was the Technical Editor. Here's a link to the published CE article, offered on our CRG site under "Technical Articles". :)

http://www.camaros.org/pdf/timing101.pdf

:beers:
 
I seen that very same write up on another site?????
I have been messing with dizzies timing, curves for some 40 yrs now....
Sry its not plagerism...Like john and a hand full of others we have known about this stuff way before his articule was published...
A quick skim thru the ACDelco servive manual specs tells on these things
Playing with pionts, and HEI dizzies be they , Chev, jowett, what ever, tells one these things...
With all due respect, just cause a guy with a biit of good old common sence knowledge, right an articule that happens to be pretty well on the mark, doesnt make that person the only one in the world who knowsd about this stuff.
Like I said I have been tuning moding since way before the internet ever existed.
 
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