I have a 1969 Camaro with a 350, 4 speed. I have no issues when starting the car when the motor is cold. After it warms up and drive it a bit, I shut it off, and seems like the battery is almost dead. I had the car at the local alternator/electrical shop, and my battery, alt, VR, and starter are new. Is there a problem as I have Hooker Comp headers, that the headers are getting the starter warm and not letting it start. I thought about getting one of those thermal wraps. Thanks, Jerod
Hard starting when warm
mjlynch71
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I have a 1969 Camaro with a 350, 4 speed. I have no issues when starting the car when the motor is cold. After it warms up and drive it a bit, I shut it off, and seems like the battery is almost dead. I had the car at the local alternator/electrical shop, and my battery, alt, VR, and starter are new. Is there a problem as I have Hooker Comp headers, that the headers are getting the starter warm and not letting it start. I thought about getting one of those thermal wraps. Thanks, Jerod
Having the proper size battery cables help. OE wire gauge cables, 6 AWG, and most aftermarket cables, 2 AWG, are not quite 'heavy' enough to handle current when hot.
As temperature goes up, resistance goes up also.
I find 1 AWG cables are the biggest AWG on the shelf and they certainly will provide a good path.
Placing the ground cable on the block vice the alt bracket helps alot.
As a quick test, next time it does not start, with a 1/4 inch flat screwdriver, short across the battery post and the S terminal on the starter solenoid. If the starter cranks over good and engine starts, then the present starter is fine. Just need a better current path from the battery to the starter. Might need a new solenoid as the copper bolts do corrode from arc flash and become resistive, remember the heat/resistance mentioned earlier? Same thing applies here.
As temperature goes up, resistance goes up also.
I find 1 AWG cables are the biggest AWG on the shelf and they certainly will provide a good path.
Placing the ground cable on the block vice the alt bracket helps alot.
As a quick test, next time it does not start, with a 1/4 inch flat screwdriver, short across the battery post and the S terminal on the starter solenoid. If the starter cranks over good and engine starts, then the present starter is fine. Just need a better current path from the battery to the starter. Might need a new solenoid as the copper bolts do corrode from arc flash and become resistive, remember the heat/resistance mentioned earlier? Same thing applies here.
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Jerod, check in "search" under "heat hard starting"...and you will find some excellent points/suggestions made by Steps and the others covering this issue.
capt
capt
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3,120 Posts
I just went through a similar problem. All along I thought mine was a starter heat soak issue but it turned out to be a bad ignition switch at the end. Read this thread as there is a lot of good info in there regarding heat soak, battery cables, troubleshooting starter issues, timing and hot starts, heat blankets, etc.
Most hot starting problems end up being due to increased resistance in the starting circuit. This means either a poor ground/negative cable or a bad positive cable. Rule of thumb... if you don't know how old the positive and negative cables are then they need to be replaced. Also replace the ground straps from motor to chassis.
A common issue on old cars with orginal wiring is the wire from ign to starter...
A wires age (and/or been overheated/shorted) the surface of the strands become corrided/burnt...the Electron run down the outside not thru the middle of the strands.
A simple fix for this is a relay mounted low on the firewall...(heater cover nut) so the ign now activates the relay and gives full voltage/current.
I will try the hi torque starter, as both the positive and negative cables are new 4awg. The two wires going to the seloind are newer. I did wrap the positive cable as it runs between the header tubes. I hope this will fix the problem, as soon as the car cools down it starts fine, as last year I had manifolds and never had any problems. What is making me think the headers have something to do with this. My motor a 358 has 10:1 compression, and using the same starter but rebuilt from the old 307. Thanks, Jerod
Fwiw, my 355 is 10.75:1 with headers and no starter wrap. Motor runs 180-185F all day long even idling through parades for 2.5 hours. I run a 85amp alternator and Optima red top battery, all cables are 4awg including an added ground strap from block to chassis.
I had a Hitachi style high torque starter on it when I first put the motor in but had it loosen up (parallel bolts + probably my fault) and eat the pinion gear. Never had any starting problems. I changed over to a DB Electric #301 starter with staggered bolts and starts hot, cold, no difference.
I had a Hitachi style high torque starter on it when I first put the motor in but had it loosen up (parallel bolts + probably my fault) and eat the pinion gear. Never had any starting problems. I changed over to a DB Electric #301 starter with staggered bolts and starts hot, cold, no difference.
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I think you should run a very basic and quick test before you go down the new starter path. That was the best advise that was given to me, however I already had a new high torque starter and was about to get another one. Turned out it was not the starter.
Run the car around the block couple times or let it idle until you hit your max temp. Shut it off and let it heat soak for 10-20 mins with the goal of recreating the issue. Start it and when it doesn’t crank then:
Jump the starter with a 12 gauge wire (instead of a screwdriver) by touching the wire ends (very carefully) to both terminals on the starter. If it cranks, then the starter could be just fine and the issue is somewhere else. Use of 12 gauge wire vs. the typical screwdriver is more accurate from an amperage draw point of view.
Run the car around the block couple times or let it idle until you hit your max temp. Shut it off and let it heat soak for 10-20 mins with the goal of recreating the issue. Start it and when it doesn’t crank then:
Jump the starter with a 12 gauge wire (instead of a screwdriver) by touching the wire ends (very carefully) to both terminals on the starter. If it cranks, then the starter could be just fine and the issue is somewhere else. Use of 12 gauge wire vs. the typical screwdriver is more accurate from an amperage draw point of view.
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If the starter did crank in the previous jump test, then while you’re under there do a voltage test on the end of the ignition wire going to the starter. Attach voltmeter’s red wire/probe to end of ignition wire at the starter and voltmeter’s black wire/probe to some good ground. Have someone turn and hold the key at crank position (assuming the starter is still “heat soaked” and not cranking). You should see +12V reading.
I'd try an inexpensive aftermarket heat shield before buying a new starter. Worked for me.
Something like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1370/
Mark
Something like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1370/
Mark
It sounds like the starter cranks when hot, but it cranks slowly. If so, then the problem is either a weak battery, crappy/undersized/dirty/old batt cables, or a dying starter.
If you get nothing when hot, then the problem is likely a bad connection or bad switch (incl NSS) in the circuit to the purple "S" wire.
If you get nothing when hot, then the problem is likely a bad connection or bad switch (incl NSS) in the circuit to the purple "S" wire.
I checked the timing it is at 14 BTDC and dwell is at 30. I drove it today for about 8 minutes came home, turned the car off and it started just fine. I did wrap the positive cable in heat tape as it runs between the headers. I am having the shop look at it again as he has done this for 40 years and he believes it needs the heavier starter as the current one eventhough rebuilt was from the 283/307 size. Hopefully this will fix it. Thanks, Jerod
Thats getting to the verge of loading the armiture , creating partly melted solder joints so when hot they open up...
u can check by heating the armiture and checking the continuity of the solder joints or finding an Auto sparkie shop that has a growller to check it
It only takes 1 solder joint to be faulty
Hence why factory curves are around the 8 deg intial and use the VA to increase the idle advance for smooth stable idle.
Its not about heat sink into the starter...
Which way do I turn the dist. I had someone help me with getting the new motor running. This time, do I leave the vaccum advance hooked up or not to get to the 8 or so timing. I will not take it to the shop for a new starter, but change my timing. Thanks, Jerod
Unhook vac adv, turn dist CW to retard timing.
You will have to increase curb idle alittle, maybe.
At some point in time, if not sooner, my suggestion is change the battery cable for a heavier and longer one and route the cable to the solenoid like the OE route, down to the engine/frame mount then take a left along the oil pan to the solenoid. Keeps the cable away from the exhaust.
See the clips for the cable on the crossmember under the fuel pump? They are there to hold the cable in place. There should be a clip on the oil pan midway to hold the cable. The clip is held in place by an oil pan bolt. If not there, one can easily be made, insulate the clip to not rub a hole in the cable insulation.
You will have to increase curb idle alittle, maybe.
At some point in time, if not sooner, my suggestion is change the battery cable for a heavier and longer one and route the cable to the solenoid like the OE route, down to the engine/frame mount then take a left along the oil pan to the solenoid. Keeps the cable away from the exhaust.
See the clips for the cable on the crossmember under the fuel pump? They are there to hold the cable in place. There should be a clip on the oil pan midway to hold the cable. The clip is held in place by an oil pan bolt. If not there, one can easily be made, insulate the clip to not rub a hole in the cable insulation.
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