Team Camaro Tech banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

468 Roller setup? What do I need?

Jump to Latest
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
F

FatCax

· Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello again all.

I have a 454 out of an 89 chevy 1 ton. I am getting it bored to a 468 and am looking to get 500-550 HP. This is going into my 72 camaro SS. I have hooker headers and 781 heads but I dont know what to do or where to start for the rest of the parts. I figured a cam is the best place to start and match the parts from there.

I am wondering if a roller cam is the way to go. during the nice weather I will be driving quite a bit. I know that a roller cam setup is A LOT more than normal setup but if its worth it I will suck it up and spend the money.

If you all suggest a roller setup, then what do I need to do to my engine so I can make this work since my 89 engine is not already set up for roller.

The engine has 40K miles on it and I am wondering if I can use the stock cast crank or should I buy a new forged one?

Any suggestions on pistons? I was thinking 10-10.5:1 but am now thinking 9:1. I want to run on pump gas so considering my HP goal and my pump gas goal, what is the best way to go?

Any and all suggestions are a great help!

Thanks,
Logan
 
#2 ·
What transmission (and what mods [stall/valve body type/etc...] if Auto)?
What type of extended use - Cruising, Competition % and type or ???
What RPM levels?

You'll need to lock in your desired CR range pretty tight before you can pick a cam that will work with it - or ... go the other way around, and pick a cam you like that fits your upper-end set-up and then go with the required CR to match ...
A cast BB crank is very reliable to @700+HP with common prep and assembly procedures for street performance use. The type of driveline and your desired RPM level will effect the crank choice even more than it's construction in many cases.
Your HP goals are pretty easy to reach with the right cam to go with your heads and bottom end.


The Mark IV will accept a roller with minimum mods - but type and use influence what is needed to use for both the block, heads and valve train.

You're usually fine calling a few manufactures and discussing your application with them and getting their recommendations.
You can then post their input (along with you needs) on here and let us comment on the plus/minus of each.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#3 ·
Logan, as John posted - we need more information. My main questions are

1. How are you going to use the car? (Percent street versus percent drag strip)
2. What ratio rearend are you going to run?
3. What is the highest octane you can get at the pump?
4. Max rpm you plan to run? (get a rev limiter to ensure that)

Most people don't need a roller cam unless you are going with a full race setup.

Cast crank is fine for what you want for hp.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks for the quick replys!

Some more info:
This car is going to be street, I will rarely take it to the track.
I have the stock rear, 373 10 bolt
I have the original munci transmission, I think it is the M21, 4 speed

I will be taking this on the highway when I need to get a longer distance than normal but this will mostly be a drive around town car, speed limit usually being 30-55 MPH. 65 taking it on the highway.

Max RPM's I want probably 6-6500 (sound about right?)

Highest pump gas I can get is premium, 93.
Being able to run it on cheaper gas would be even better though but not sure if possible.

Also, If I use my stock crank, should I buy new main and rod bearings or use the original bearings?

Should I get a new timing chain? whats better- double roller chain, the timing gears (no chain), or just a normal timing chain?

Thanks
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
I was also wondering if the quality of the main/rod bearings that I buy is going to make a big difference because I can buy Clevite 77 for around $30-40, are they going to be good enough?
 
#6 ·
Okay, 1st the driveline;
The M21's are very reliable transmission and able to handle 400~450HP very reliably, depending on tire and use ...
Since you'll do little to no competition with it, it may be fine if you aim for the lower of your goals and avoid any major shock-loading of the driveline - e.g. - hard launches with sticky tires and surfaces.
If you get into some spirited driving from time to time it may start to emit sounds that will clue you it has decided you've reached the limits of it's endurance and you'll be looking for a 'new' trans type ;)
Same goes for that 10-bolt - I've put those HP levels into them for years and they have still given good service - BUT, it depends on the use and again 'shock-loads' to it. A few hard launches with good hook and/or mixed traction surfaces (one/both wheel(s) hooking and releasing in succession) it may not last as long as you hoped without some internal part and modifications.

6~6.5K RPM will not be an issue with well sellected valve train and internal parts - as long as you don't hold it there for long periods ...
With a Solid Roller you can raise that another .5~1K - but it's gonna have to be accompanied by better internals and valve trains stuff or if will become troublesome pretty quick ...
But - your heads are going to become the limiting factor here long before a cam runs out of 'poop' to go for more - some work with valve prep and minor port matching and bowl work will increase their ability to support some higher RPM flow.

Dropping the static CR and sellecting a cam with a better DCR will allow you to use lower level fuel octanes.
You are of course giving up some output with each of these mods, so you'll need to decide if HP or fuel selection is going to be the limiting factor for your build.
Most will stay under 10:1 for reliable street use and decent flexability with fuel.

I always 'freshen-up' the bottom-end when doing a build that is intended to increase the available HP fro reliablilty.
It's a very reasonable cost for the return ...
The Clevite-77 bearings are a very good choice - never have much trouble with them if they are matched to the application.
I almost always check and polish the crank when doing these type of builds - again, it's very cheap insurance to be sure it's not hiding an issue and make sure it gets the best shot at serving my needs for the build.

Cam drive should be kept pretty 'mundane' for street use :yes:
A 'Double-roller' is not normally necessary for street level valve train loads and use of one may be limited by cam choice on a Mark-IV BB, modern Gen. V-VI rollers will require use of a narrower chain for clearance.
A good quality major brand timing chain and gears can be just as strong and will live a long happy life in most cases.
The last thing I would recommend for a strickly street driven engine was "Gear Drive" (or most of them anyway).
Most common 'Speed-shop' Gear drives induce odd harmonics in the cam/valve train that tend to lessen the longevity of these in a short amount of street type driving.
They are also the cause of lots of oddities with some ignition systems resulting in unstable advance curves and spark issues.
If you wanted that 'Noise' - find another way to get it :yes:

Hope this helps some.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#7 · (Edited)
The main concern when Retro Fitting a FT MKIV to Roller in order to rev her up is that the Valve Train is extremely Heavy requiring relatively Strong Valve Springs say 150/450 max CC-928's for HR and 200/500 plus CC-933's for SR Street application. Considering the amount of pressure required to rev that heavy Valve Train, the small Dia .842" lifter bores make for Small Roller Contact, and the lifter bores are not aligned true. GM never considered the lifter Bore alignment critical for a FT Cam as the Lobe Bevel automatically keeps the Cam from Walking. Because of Lifter Bore Alignment a Roller Cam will Walk forward in a Chev Engine.

Personally, I can not see using a HR in a 396 to 468 cu MKIV as the Hydraulic Lifter, either HFT or HR, by nature limits the RPM to approx 6200rpm so if you want a Hydraulic lifter stay with a HFT Cam or if you want more rev's say 6500 to 7000rpm either go SFT or SR.

I would say HR is good for 496ci and up as you really don't need to rev them up to make big power.

I highly recommend that if you go Roller have the Lifter Bores aligned True and open the Diameter to accept the .903" Roller Lifter as it will not only stop the forces of Cam Walk but will allow you to use a Bigger Roller having more contact on the Cam Lobe where you can run higher Spring Pressures to handle that Heavy Valve Train.

If your after revving that MKIV, I say run between a 10 to 10.25 Static compression and look at the Lunati 502A1LUN SR running approx 200/500 lbs springs using the Ford .903" Hi-Quality SR Lifter like ISKY EZ or Crower Hippo's. Of course anything over 6200 RPM you will require a Stude Girdle, ARP Studs and desent Roller Rockers like Harland Sharp or Pro MAGS.

A Cast Crank, cross drilled, should be OK to 6500 rpm - They are light and rev fast. If you want 7000rpm you require a Forged Crank. A 2 Bolt Block is just fine but you should use Studs and consider a Windage Tray.

Believe me you will never use more then 6200rpm on the Street with a 454. So why go through all the expense when a HFT Cam like the Comp Cams XM278H-12 with say CC-925 Springs will get you there.

781 Heads, although Heavy, with good guides(this Critical) fitted with 2.19/1.88 Valves and some bowl Porting will spin a 454 to 7000rpm with a Holley 830 or 850 sitting on an Edelbrock RPM Intake. Iron Heads require that you use a .018" Steel Head Gasket to keep the Quench in Spec's between .034" to ,044" with a None Decked Mill. If you not fussy about keeping the Original Engine Stamping, I would 0-Deck and run a .038" Composite Head Gasket and you're all set up if you ever intend to run lighter Alu-Heads.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Wow, thanks for all that info, it will def. be a big help!

So I took the advice and asked summit racing about recommending me parts based on what I already described to you all. This is what they came up with:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-CSMHP781-600/

Assuming a .060' overbore and standard bearings the above kit will place the compression ratio at about 9.05:1 Surface cutting the heads and the block for straightness will bring it up slightly. The Comp Cams 270H "K" kit will complete the short block and the heads. The cam is excellent for street machines with headers and has a slight rough idle.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K11-207-3/

I asked: "Also, why do you suggest only 9:1 compression, I was thinking I would want
10:1 or !0.5:1 but wasn't sure"

and this is the latest reply I got: "10.5:1 with an iron head won't run on pump gas. 10:1 would be borderline. The EDL-2161 manifold with the Q-Jet carburetor would work very well. Low end torque would be exceptional. A set of aluminum roller rocker arms would also help stabilize the valve train and help the cam operation. Horsepower is not really relevant on the street. It's all based on acceleration which is controlled by torque. Matching the parts and tuning are the keys in any respect. All this means absolutely nothing if the suspension isn't worked as well. If you can't get it to the ground who cares what's under the hood."

What do you guys think about the parts suggested? Any suggestions on changing some parts with others?
 
#9 ·
A good HR cam for a 454 is the Lunati 60212 or 60622 (Gen 6 version). 231/239 .600 110lsa. Ran real good in my Chevelle/M20 3.90 rear. Produced 115mph trap speeds at 4000lbs. Idled at 850, made 11-12" of vac. I also like Cranes 230/236, 236/244, and Comps 230/236. All are terrific street cams. Once you start getting into the 240 range in a HR, it starts to become sorta radical and vacuum begins to drop off, idle speed comes up.
 
#10 · (Edited)
You can run as Hi as 10.5:1 with Iron Heads with a Cam giving you a DCR no higher then 8.2 on pump gas providing you keep the Quench in Specs.

Check out Patric Kelley's DCR Calculator here http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

I run a 10.25 Static with the Lunati 502A1LUN cam and Crower Hippos giving me a DCR of approx 8.2 with the 781 Heads and have no problems running Pump Gas - as I say the Quench is Critical.

The mill puts out over 600Hp & will rev 7000rpm with a Forged Rotating Assembly but to me it wasn't worth the Expense for them few Extra RPM's and another 100Hp which you can't use on the street where as the Comp Cam HFT XM278H-12 with 925 springs took me to 6200rpm and 500 Plus Hp easily for the fraction of the price.
 
#11 ·
Logan, you might notice that there's a billion combinations. Just get in the ballpark.
Ron and John are your encyclopedia.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#12 ·
I like that 270H cam and the advice you got from them.

Going higher than .510 lift will just cause problems and expense on a street car.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#13 · (Edited)
For a Stock 8.5:1 Static Compression 454, as Beth points out a 266H-10, 268H10 or say a 270H-10 with a 9:1 Static Compression running CC-924 Springs with a 750 Holey/ Edelbrock Performer intake - ARP Studs and Descent Roller Rockers like Harland Sharp or Pro MAGS will deliver little over 400Hp and get you too 6000rpm - This is probably the Cheapest Bang for the Buck and very dependable.

Too get to a 9:1 Static compression you can run 100cc 396 Closed Chamber Heads over the Stock Flat Top 454 Pistons and run a 270H-10 Cam. Shifting at 5500rpm to get it all in by 6000rpm

If you're after Higher Compression you would require something like Speed Pro 2465L-30's Forged Pistons with a 25.7 Doom with them 118cc 781 Heads (Always cc the Chamber to assure Chamber Volume) to hit approx a 10.2 Static Compression with a .018" Steel Head Gasket - Then the XM278H-12 Cam with 924 Springs can get you too 500Hp shifting at 6000rpm to get it all in by say 6400rpm which is MAX for a HFT Lifter: However, you are now into SR Territory providing you have a Forged Rotating Assembly.

Speed Pro ZL2349F30 Pistons with approx a 29cc dome will produce approx a 10.5:1 Static Compression with 118cc Chamber then you looking at say a 282 to a 288 Cam to get the DCR Down to 8.2 in order to run Pump Gas.

If your not going for a Forged Crank Stick with HFT Cam. If your putting out for a Forged Rotating Assembly with approx a 10:1 Plus Static Compression the cheapest Bang for the Buck to get you to 6500+rpm is to run a SFT Cam.

Retro fitting a MKIV properly - takes experience - as Roller is Expensive and not worth that extra 800rpm and 100Hp for a Street Ride in my opinion. Believe me 6200rpm & 500Hp on the Street running say a 10:1 Static with a XM278H-12 Cam is more then enough Power, much cheaper and more dependable. I love the that XM278H-12 Cam with the 112 LSA between a 9.5 to 10.2:1 Static Compression as it delivers a Higher Vacuum, Super Strong Broad Band Torque throughout the entire RPM Range and will rev until the Lifters float and stay together, plus the Exhaust note is to Die for. The SFT LS6 used a 112 LSA. For an Iron Head 10:1 Static 454 that XM278H-12 can't be beat on the Street - But you got to invest in Pistons like the Speed Pro TRW 2465F30's, ARP Rockers Studs and say CC-Pro MAG Rockers with the Old 750 DP/ Edelbrock Performer or RPM Intake.

"Trust Me."

By the way there are a lot of MKIV BBC Guru's on the Team Chevelle Site.

How much Money and Time are you willing to spend but most of all "Do you have the time to LEARN and trust your Peers or want to Spend Humongous Dollars for Hands On". Wish someone told me this when I got addicted back in the 60's, as I've wasted too many Dollars throughout the years just too get it through my thick skull.

I'm talking about Building Street Pump Gas Mills and really don't give a **** about Gear Ratio's but then if you into Competition Racing - Gear Ratio's Vs Cams and Compression, Weight, Suspension ...etc is what Specs and Tuning is all about to Win.

Hope I have not made you SICK - If So - Welcome to Team Camaro.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
You Guys are AWESOME! thank you so much for the help!!

With all the info I have gathered so far, I think my next step is going to be to pick out all the pieces that I like for my build and list em all on here. Then if you guys are willing you could look over what I picked and let me know if you think something would work a little better or save me a little money or something.

So that is my plan for the next few days, I will post the list when it is done. I will also keep checking on here because all the info you guys have given me is an incredible help! If there are any more suggestions I am happy to receive them!

Thank you so much again!

-Logan
 
#15 ·
Z15CAM said:
I highly recommend that if you go Roller have the Lifter Bores aligned True and open the Diameter to accept the .903" Roller Lifter as it will not only stop the forces of Cam Walk but will allow you to use a Bigger Roller having more contact on the Cam Lobe where you can run higher Spring Pressures to handle that Heavy Valve Train.

Imo..never met a roller cam that stayed put without the help of a retainer plate or a nylon/needle bearing thrust button.
Do us all a service and please explain how more roller contact surface stops "the forces of Cam Walk".
Click to expand...
 
#16 · (Edited)
Aligning and Over Sizing the Lifters Bores do not entirely eliminate cam walk, as without Anti-Cam-Walk Devices a Roller Cam will Float both forward and aft but with minimal forces on the Lifters Roller Pins or Bushing - whatever used. This is why the Lifter Bores of OEM Roller Engines are Aligned True from the factory and implement a Locking (Plate) Device to keep the Cam in position. If the Lifter Bores are not Aligned True to the Cam it stands to reason that one end or the other of the Roller Pins, depending on the angle of misalignment, will be subject to more forces then the other end of the Roller Axis.

It's good practice to use an oil with a relatively Hi-ZDDP content if the Lifters Bores have not been Aligned and Over-sized.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
#18 · (Edited)
We can't answer that unless you tell us what Piston & Static Compression you will be running.

That 270H-10 would be OK for a 9.1 Static 400 to 425Hp and the XM278H-12 is one fantastic Cam with a Static between 9.5 to say 10.2:1 producing close to 525Hp.

Buy their more Expensive Hydraulic lifter or better yet by OEM or Old Stock Crane, TRW, Clevite or Elgin HFT Lifters. The Comp Cams CCA-925-16 Springs should work just fine with either Cam - Course you will require 2" ARP Studs, ARP Poly Locks, Comp Cam 10 Degree Locks and Retainers and possible Crane Spacers if your heads have Valve rotators under the Exhaust Springs. Again I repeat Descent Roller rockers either Harland Sharp or Comp Pro Mags.

That Lunati Cam with that big 302 Advertized duration and 115 LSA looks more like a Blower Cam to me.

Suggest you go back and re-read what has been posted.

This is a 625Hp 7000rpm 10.25:1 460ci BBC in my 70Z - Totally over board and too expensive for Street and Cruising application where the much cheaper 500hp 10:1 XM278H-12 is more practicable and dependable.
Image

M21 to 3.31:1 12 Bolt Posi - What can I say she's a Road Warrior that can burn a Tank of Gas, all the Rubber Off and go nowhere in 20 minutes but still a great HWY Cruiser at 2400rpm.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Ok, I did more research and narrowed down the cams I like to 4. I was wondering if you could let me know what you think of them.

I have 2 cams that are 110 lobe separation and 2 that have 112. Is the 110 a bad choice because I was leaning towards one of the 110s.

110:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-336-4/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-250-3/
(This is the same cam but with a different coating. It is a lot more but if I were to get it, is it worth it? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-250-20/)

112:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-00244/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-244-4/

I think my top 2 are the cam with that plasma nitrate (or without it) or the crower one.

Also, I havent done too much research on pistons so any tips or suggestions on them based on what I have chosen for cams, would be awesome! If possible too...

Thanks again
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
About this Discussion
33 Replies
11 Participants
Last post:
Z15CAM
Team Camaro Tech
posts
2.4M
members
90K
Since
1998
A forum community dedicated to 1st generation Chevy Camaros owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, builds, restoration, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, reviews, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Bench Racing Engine Body Shop Performance Brakes, Suspension & Steering