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600 hp Build Advice

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34K views 65 replies 27 participants last post by  kettbo  
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#1 ·
Need advice on my engine combination.
1967 Camaro, TKO 600, Moser 12 bolt 3.73 gears, ridetech coilover suspension
The car is going to be a street car with occassional track days. Must be able to run on 93 octane full time. With that being said, the engine can not be an LS engine. It has to be a SBC or a BBC. It also has to have aluminum heads and intake. I also prefer a roller hydraulic cam if possible. The goal is 600 horsepower. Given these specs, what is the cheapest option? Thanks!​
 
C
#4 ·
We have a 421 SBC with 220 AFR heads and we are using a solid roller cam, When finished it should be on the dyno and we are looking for a low 600 number on the dyno!! This is a pump gas build.
 
E
#5 ·
piratebaseball said:
Need advice on my engine combination.
1967 Camaro, TKO 600, Moser 12 bolt 3.73 gears, ridetech coilover suspension
The car is going to be a street car with occassional track days. Must be able to run on 93 octane full time. With that being said, the engine can not be an LS engine. It has to be a SBC or a BBC. It also has to have aluminum heads and intake. I also prefer a roller hydraulic cam if possible. The goal is 600 horsepower. Given these specs, what is the cheapest option? Thanks!
​
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What is your budget?

Carl's engine will likely meet your goals.

And I will offer that a 383 with a blower will get the job done very nicely too. Procharger and Vortech probably have some stuff available to meet your needs.
 
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Z
#6 · (Edited)
cheapest option
Click to expand...
For 600Hp and TONS of Torque.

A 454+.060" = 4.31 Bore with a Cast Internally Balanced 4.25" Stoker Crank - 496ci, 10.35:1 Hyper Pistons say with a 20cc Dome in a 118cc Chamber (Perhaps Cast 781 Heads) running a .005" Deck and a .038" Composite Head Gasket for Alu-Heads and a .043" Quench. Suggested cam would be something like an Extreme Marine 2200 to 5800 11-451-810 XM284HR 284 290 230 236 .547 .547 112° HR Cam for an 8.0:1 DCR. Holley 900 or 950cfm/Edelbrock RPM - MAX 6200rpm and 600+ Hp with "TONS of Torque" on Pump Gas.

CCA- 924 or 925 Springs (928 Max), 2" ARP Studs & Poly-Locks with descent Roller Rockers such as Pro Mags or Harland Sharp. A Stud Girdle would not be necessary but would not Hurt especially if your running Alu-Heads. I'm not necessarily a CCA advocate but they do provide descent charts to compare Cam Profile with. Check out Patrick Kelley's DCR Calculator, here: http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Check out this HR Budget Build at Team Chevelle - It's still not Cheap: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326289

If you can Build an Engine and know a Good Machinists with a Shop - It will save you a TON of Money.

I put out 600+Hp with a 7000rpm SR 460 MKIV on Pump Gas with a Forged Rotating assembly - It Screams but so does the Dollars and I built it myself knowing a friend who owns a Machine Shop.

PS: You can break 700Hp on Pump Gas with a Forged Rotating Assembly 10:5:1 Alu-Head SR 496 MKIV but you would also break the Bank.

Of course I talking Naturally Carb Aspirated Mills but then there always Pro Charging and cheaper yet NOS if your willing to Sacrifice.
 
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#8 ·
600 horses at motor or to the wheels--gonna need atleast 496ci --496 with 10-1 compression.....
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Guess my little 468 is the exception to the above....661 HP @ flywheel.....Bigger isn't always better......

David F.
 
Z
#10 · (Edited)
Guess my little 468 is the exception to the above....661 HP @ flywheel.....Bigger isn't always better......
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Excuse me with 460 cubes and OEM 781 Heads on Top.

Looks STK but Far from It :eek:
Image

And don't bug me how Orange it is - LOL

I love 450Hp 8000rpm 327's but compared to 600Hp 7000rpm medium displacement BBC's but there's no comparison to the Torque when it comes to Lower Gears and Street-ability; however, there's a big difference in Gas Mileage.

If your going to put out the money for a Hi-Revving Mid Cube MKIV you might as well go with a Forged Rotating 496 - It cost the same and you got another 100Hp and TONS more Torque.

Them Vortec and Lewis Mills appear great but seem to exaggerate Hp; never the less, I would tare their build down to inspect them for Dirt.

I've a friend that has a 421 SBC 1/4 mile Mill (Owns a Garage and Speed Shop) - Not a Ride by any means - Costing much more then my mill with a Dart Block, Com Star Crank, Oliver Rods, Weisco Pistons, AFR Heads, Jessel Shaft Rockers and the list goes on and on but he can't drive the Car on the Street - Not my Bag.
 
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#44 ·
Z15CAM said:
Excuse me with 460 cubes and OEM 781 Heads on Top.

Looks STK but Far from It :eek:
Image

And don't bug me how Orange it is - LOL

I love 450Hp 8000rpm 327's but compared to 600Hp 7000rpm medium displacement BBC's but there's no comparison to the Torque when it comes to Lower Gears and Street-ability; however, there's a big difference in Gas Mileage.

If your going to put out the money for a Hi-Revving Mid Cube MKIV you might as well go with a Forged Rotating 496 - It cost the same and you got another 100Hp and TONS more Torque.

Them Vortec and Lewis Mills appear great but seem to exaggerate Hp; never the less, I would tare their build down to inspect them for Dirt.

I've a friend that has a 421 SBC 1/4 mile Mill (Owns a Garage and Speed Shop) - Not a Ride by any means - Costing much more then my mill with a Dart Block, Com Star Crank, Oliver Rods, Weisco Pistons, AFR Heads, Jessel Shaft Rockers and the list goes on and on but he can't drive the Car on the Street - Not my Bag.
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Exagerate HP, tear them down to inspect for dirt, You got be kidding. Got a question for you expert? How did Alans Vette run 128 MPH @ 3720 with a 3.36 gears? How did Tonys pump gas 468 run 10.64 @ 3880 pounds? How did the white chevelle run 10.3s with a pump gas 468 @ 3720 pounds the first time out @ 2500 feet into a 15 mph strait headwind? How did Garrets camaro run 142.5 @ 9.40 with a 468 @ 3380 pounds in 1700 feet air? Have you ever seen a drag strip? Have you ever been on a real dyno? I will be sure to call Mike Lewis today. I will be waiting for your answers. You got to be kidding. :yes:
 
T
#11 · (Edited)
Definitely a BBC if a single carb NA motor, it it should not cost much money to acheive 1.2 to 1.3 hp per ci if you have enough cubes.. a 489 or 496 should do it easily.

A blown 383 can also achieve that level power for a fairly low cost if built right.

Not so sure you want an SR cam on the street, so a BBC or a blown SBC is the way to go.
 
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#12 · (Edited)
piratebaseball said:
Need advice on my engine combination.
1967 Camaro, TKO 600, Moser 12 bolt 3.73 gears, ridetech coilover suspension
​
Click to expand...
I have a similiar combination of trans and rear with 496, Brodix RR Ovals, Eddy RPM AirGap and Comp Cams Hydr. Roller. If you go HR don't cheap out on the Hydraulic roller lifters, I've had good luck with the Morel Sportsman series. Also make sure your valve springs are properly matched for your application. Quality machine work and assembly goes without sayin' :)
 
S
#13 ·
All good advice and of course i went with a BB 496 at 70 over to a 498, Scat forged crank and rods, SRP pistons slight dome, xr286r solid roller comp cam billet core, Crower roller lifters, Brodix RR Ovals, Comp Cam Pro Magnum roller rockers, Air Gap intake, Pro-System carb...

Had the motor professionally built with a build sheet and all new parts except for the block and they dynod it after the build just to make sure it was all good.
 
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#14 ·
Thanks guys for all your replies. I am going down to Turkey Rod Run this weekend and I hope to find some stuff down there that I can use to help build the motor to help keep the cost down. I would really like to keep the engine under 6k if I could and still make the desired power. I know thats tough with aluminum heads. I really like AFR 315 heads but those beasts are expensive...
 
K
#15 ·
Landon,

The larger the engine you use to make 600 horses the more streetable it is.
Sure you can have a 500 horse 302 but it would only be good for race day and you would not be able to cruise at all.

Why 600 horse? Do you have the bucks and smarts to get the power to the ground? Hmmmm, let me see....BBC, 600 ft lbs torque,,,shattered axles, U Joints, TKO, no traction. Really a handful to get to launch and master.

I was able to drive my 500 horse +/- 454 to work and auto finish school for two weeks,,,rock solid reliable, gets the looks, can do the burnouts, oh, and run well into the 11s with a mild 3000 stall converter, near stock th350, and only 3.42 gears, only change being to throw on the drag radials. A cam swap would give me roughly 600 horse but it would be race-only and require stupid gearing, more converter and more safety equipment as any improvement would get me below the 11.50 zone and mandatory cage. Better to have a 500 horse car and be able to take it in traffic or 2-hour trips to club events then have a limited-use 600 horse fuel sucker 'street car'

454 can get the job done but easier with 496 cubes.
Ron/Z15's concept is solid.
Thing is XM284HR 284 290 230 236 .547 .547 112° HR Cam will not get the 600 horse job done. I have over fifty passes in my Elky last year, 454 with 237/245* .602/.600" lift on 110 LSA...solid rollers on an HR profile too for a little more rpm, and the 454 is done dealing at 6000-6200. With 496, I'd recommend more duration, I'm thinking (with all due respect here mind you) that a 496 would fall on its face at 5500 with Ron's choice. Need to feed the beast, big cylinders to fill.

Keep running ideas here, lots of experience. Let's talk budget and skills here.Do ya build your own iron or do ya write checks? Nail down what you want and CStraub can help you with cam selection. Chris is a good guy
 
#16 ·
George has a good point, why 600? If you are just looking for something that is pretty wicked on the street 500 will be that, my pretty simple and streetable (to me, some may have called it borderline) 406 was right there and it was a blast to drive and ran 11.40's in street trim.

But, that said if you want 600 streetable horsepower and are looking at NA a 454+ big block is the ticket, like a 468 or in this case bigger is better so build accordingly. A big cube motor will want really good heads to work well, but at the same time heads make horsepower, spend as much as you possibly can on cylinder heads big or small block.

Now I agree with the blower statement though, if you have a small block now you could build a solid small block and throw a D1SC Procharger on it and it will make 600 RWHP and run on pump gas all day long.
I'm personally a die hard smallblock guy (I have considered a BB for cost vs Horsepower though) so I'm building a 8500 rpm 327 bored .165"...... ok it's a 4.165 bore 3.25 stroke 354...;) and going to run a Procharger on it, hoping to make well into the 800 horse and beyond range and run pump in it. It's niether of what you listed though it's pretty radical, runs a SR cam and is costing more than I had hoped... don't tell my wife :D.

What kind of budget? Figure NA and built right you can pretty easily make 1.25 horse per cubic inch, so thats something to consider. Or if you have some of the smallblock parts maybe consider a centrifugal blower.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Sean I think you and I are the only ones left still running big bore short stroke SBC. I keep reading the posts saying how unstreetable they are. It's really about what you want to put up with. To me correctly geared short stroke SBC are a blast. The die hard BBC guys just cringe when they think about cruising in one of these, but it's really a blast. I do have a 454 block on a stand that'll be a 496, but got to get the 334 built first (4.155 x 3.080 4.56 gears).
 
#19 ·
I don't really understand it myself Dave, it seems like everyone seeks the huge torque numbers. But there is a point torque becomes useless on a street tire, I loved my 406, it made plenty of torque with rpm oriented parts.
I have had 283's to my last 406 and they are all fun, but I'm really looking forward to my current high winding 354 project.

Build them right and gear accordingly! :D
 
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#21 ·
it just seems the most logical easy and cheapest to accomplish is larger bbc cubes--i have also been sbc man most my life and stroked and detroked almost every combination-a high reving engine makes work --work robs horspower--although i am removing my bbc in race car and installing a 421sbc
 
S
#22 · (Edited)
OK here is some good info on my pump gas BB build. I only reused my block and everything else is new..... You get what you pay for and I also like both BB and SB... Lots of good info and yes 600hp is fun but a little to much for an all street car. My car is only for street but i really want to see what it will do some day down the track.

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#41 ·
Skip - I didn't know S&S built your motor. George and Rick know their stuff. RIP George.

To the original poster - You do not need 600HP for mid 11's. As others have said, depending on the weight 450 - 500 will get you there. :beers:
 
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#25 ·
I just got back from TRR tonight and I must say I was disappointed with what I found down there this year. The part swap at Moultrie, GA the previous weekend I felt was bigger and had a lot more good stuff than Turkey Rod Run had. Oh well, won't make that same mistake next year.

I really like the vortec engines that Chevrolet made from 96-99. I'm thinking about getting a chevrolet vortec short block (about 300-600 dollars) and reusing the crank and rods and bore the block .030 over. Get some good forged pistons and try to run 10.5:1 compression with the heads that I choose. The vortec engines are 4 bolts, roller hydraulic ready, and come with a one piece rear main seal. I'd like to run mid 11's if I could. I'd like to max out on rpms around 6k to 6500 at the most. With that being said, what roller hydraulic cam/head combo would you guys recommend?
 
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#29 ·
piratebaseball said:
. I'd like to run mid 11's if I could. I'd like to max out on rpms around 6k to 6500 at the most. With that being said, what roller hydraulic cam/head combo would you guys recommend?
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1st you need to figure out what you want
do you want a 600hp engine?
or do you want to run mid 11s?
cant have both
mid 11s will take about a 450hp engine
600hp will get you low 10s.

if all you want is mid 11s,
then build a budget 383
ported heads and a girly roller cam around 236 dur. will get you 500hp,
should be good for mid 11s without even tying and live forever, be really streetable, and have a mild idle.

if you want 600hp
do a 406+ deal with really good heads and a gilry cam around 250 dur.
but you'll have to spin it to around 7000.
 
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T
#26 ·
Looks like you are still thinking. If you still want 600hp, you would not be thinking of doing a vortec. They are a good, inexpesive base for a lower power motor. Many still prefer the old 2 piece seal over the 1 piece. You can put a hydro roller in anything. If you dont do a BBC, take a look at the LS series.
 
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