67 Camaro - 454 crate vs...

2L8IWON · Oct 12, 2017

Hi - I've posted previously about the fact that my 67 was having cooling issues and was subsequently torn down to determine that there was engine damage. Now we're at the point of taking the next steps to re-build it. I have the following options and was looking for feedback/suggestions:
1. Salvage the parts I can from the current BBC 454 motor (refinish crank, new block, etc.) and re-assemble with existing 8-71 blower, TCI transmission, etc. - probably around $13K
2. Replace the motor altogether with a crate 454, re-assemble with existing parts as above - $11K
3. Replace the motor altogether with a crate 454, remove the 8-71, replace the hood with a factory hood, etc. - probably $12k

To be frank, I don't NEED the blower from a power perspective, but I really like the way the car looks (and of course it's an 'added bonus' that the hood is already cut, etc.). I also understand that this likely means additional maintenance/wear and tear. The easiest answer would probably be option C, but I wanted to get feedback from the group.

Also - if you think the prices are way off, please let me know. I spoke to another shop that indicated the cheapest motor replacement was going to run around $20K, but I think they're just cashing in on their name.

Thanks

Mike

Larger Dave · Oct 12, 2017

Mike the current crop of ZZ or HO big blocks are going to run 9.2:1 static compression. They have all forged internals, which is good if you have issues with the motor you can rebuild it again. With cast you are usually replacing the engine because it is only scrap metal.

I would always opt for a blown over NA. You can dial up the power with just a pulley swap; provided your static compression is low enough. A late model California emission compliant EFI fed 454 will have peanut port heads a cam designed for towing a 10,000 pound trailer and 7.6:1 cast pistons. You can find them in one ton and three quarter ton light trucks and swap in a used untouched running short block (assumes everything else you have is still good) for around $3K.

If you are thinking about a ZZ454 stop it and consider a ZZ502 instead. Bigger is better for a big block which suffers from lack of compression and heads that were designed back in 1961. You can buy an all forged bottom end High Torque 502 long block which has lower 8.75:1 static compression (that allows you to dial up the boost) as a one ton light truck replacement engine for tow trucks and like, or as a short block. Bigger bore helps to build power in a BBC.

HT502 Big Block Crate Engine | Chevrolet Performance

Big Dave

Vega$69 · Oct 12, 2017

The ZZ454 crate motor is 9.6:1 compression with forged internals and aluminum heads.

I just sold a brand new one I had taken in trade.

On another note I just did a rebuild on my 427. I had the block, forged GM crank and rods.

With new forged pistons and rings, bearings and machine work it cost me right a $3k

Lawrence454 · Oct 13, 2017

Don't care for blowers- I like a sleeper. A 540 with 396 badges >

$2000 for the GM 4.5" bore block. $2000 for a stroker crank/piston setup.

$2500 for some good heads. You should be able to finish it with $2000 for a grand total of $8500.

600 hp with a smooth idle 0

pittpens24 · Oct 13, 2017

I like you love the look of a blown motor. I was seriously contemplating putting one in my build. There are a couple things that made me change my mind in the end. 1st thing was cutting a hole in a perfectly good hood - you already have that so this doesn't apply. 2nd factor was visibility and the thought of constantly getting pulled over by the local coppers(yeah that bad in our small town). 3rd was "surging" from the blower itself. I have seen a couple few too many times that blown big block with an auto behind it get thrown into gear and lunge forward from the erratic idle. I would have personally backed it up with a 6-speed, but for some reason that was always in the back of my mind to make me think that it may not be too fun to drive a car like that in town traffic. And lastly since I am that old, old school guy lol, I would have opted for the dual carb set-up and lets face it - one carb is a PITA to set up let alone two. As for the pros that almost had me pull the trigger other than the obvious look and sound, the fact that it packs more air into the cylinders to burn the fuel more completely always scored for me as it burns cleaner it should in theory be more reliable than a N/A if tuned correctly. Add fuel injection and you can scratch #4 off the list above.......good luck with your decision. I am happy with the one I made fwiw.

Larger Dave · Oct 13, 2017

3rd was "surging" from the blower itself. I have seen a couple few too many times that blown big block with an auto behind it get thrown into gear and lunge forward from the erratic idle.

This is the result of not having a boost referenced blower carburetor. You can buy a matched pair brand new from Holley or take the Holleys that you have now, and modifying them following the instructions in this article:

How To Boost Reference your Holley Carburetor

Once modified the blower will no longer hunt at idle.

One problem with a blower in Florida is a sudden thunder storm popping up. Not only is a blown big block going to be like driving a car on ice with wet roads; but water is incompressible, and you don't want to ingest any into your blower.

I know most won't drive their car in wet weather, but they do pop up fast, and you might not make it all the way home before the heavens open up. You really can not stay at the car meet because Florida leads the nation in deaths due to lightning, so it isn't safe to hang around and wait it out.

Big Dave

2L8IWON · Oct 13, 2017

Great feedback guys, thanks so much.

The one thing that was mentioned a couple of times was the fuel setup. Currently the car is on a factory fuel pump and a dual carb setup. I'd love to go EFI for a variety of reasons but it's an expense I'm not factoring in at the moment.

Once I get the estimate breakdown from the shop, will share it with this group to get feedback on the direction.

Mike

Larger Dave · Oct 13, 2017

A carburetor will be much easier when combined with a Roots style blower (includes high helix screw types, or a Latham turbine supercharger). I can not see any advantage of trying to run an EFI set up unless you are going to use a blow through throttle body with a centripetal blower or a turbo. In fact a carb rarely works as well as a blow through.

Big Dave

Matt 69 · Oct 13, 2017

Larger Dave said:
This is the result of not having a boost referenced blower carburetor. You can buy a matched pair brand new from Holley or take the Holleys that you have now, and modifying them following the instructions in this article:

How To Boost Reference your Holley Carburetor

Once modified the blower will no longer hunt at idle.

One problem with a blower in Florida is a sudden thunder storm popping up. Not only is a blown big block going to be like driving a car on ice with wet roads; but water is incompressible, and you don't want to ingest any into your blower.

I know most won't drive their car in wet weather, but they do pop up fast, and you might not make it all the way home before the heavens open up. You really can not stay at the car meet because Florida leads the nation in deaths due to lightning, so it isn't safe to hang around and wait it out.

Big Dave

Yup, Florida sure is fun!

HarrisFD · Oct 15, 2017

2L8IWON said:
Hi - I've posted previously about the fact that my 67 was having cooling issues and was subsequently torn down to determine that there was engine damage. Now we're at the point of taking the next steps to re-build it. I have the following options and was looking for feedback/suggestions:
1. Salvage the parts I can from the current BBC 454 motor (refinish crank, new block, etc.) and re-assemble with existing 8-71 blower, TCI transmission, etc. - probably around $13K
2. Replace the motor altogether with a crate 454, re-assemble with existing parts as above - $11K
3. Replace the motor altogether with a crate 454, remove the 8-71, replace the hood with a factory hood, etc. - probably $12k

Mike

I'm struggling with the math a bit. My recent 496 build started life as a $350 454 2-bolt block, $750 for Milodon splayed caps, ARP studs, have them installed/line-bored. $350 for bore, deck, freeze plugs, bearings. $2300 for a good balanced/forged stroker kit. So that's $3750 for a pretty stout lower end using all new except block. Decent Aluminum heads $2500, Roller cam, springs, rockers, pushrods $1500. So that's $7750 for all new parts (sans oil pump, timing set, gaskets, balancer). So what is your shop charging you for to do a $13K build while recycling parts from the old motor?

68GK327 · Oct 16, 2017

HarrisFD said:
I'm struggling with the math a bit. My recent 496 build started life as a $350 454 2-bolt block, $750 for Milodon splayed caps, ARP studs, have them installed/line-bored. $350 for bore, deck, freeze plugs, bearings. $2300 for a good balanced/forged stroker kit. So that's $3750 for a pretty stout lower end using all new except block. Decent Aluminum heads $2500, Roller cam, springs, rockers, pushrods $1500. So that's $7750 for all new parts (sans oil pump, timing set, gaskets, balancer). So what is your shop charging you for to do a $13K build while recycling parts from the old motor?

Exactly, I just picked up a zz454 for a deal and after adding everything to make it run(carb, bigger cam, msd pro kit, new radiator, etc... I’m under $8k project cost. Going to pull the old motor and drop in the new one with some buddies in my garage to save cost. Then I’ll probably only have $500 to $1000 in miscellaneous costs with my mechanic to get her running like a gem!

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67 Camaro - 454 crate vs...

2L8IWON

Larger Dave

Vega$69

Lawrence454

pittpens24

Larger Dave

2L8IWON

Larger Dave

Matt 69

HarrisFD

68GK327

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