Hey guys. Trying to get some input. I have a "67", 350 with Muncie 4 speed. Would like to upgrade to a 5 speed. What units do you recommend?
5 speed tranny recommendation
Moliveira
21 - 40 of 47 Posts
Joined
·
2,486 Posts
I ordered the TRG-FOC5009AA, with .64 kit which included drive shaft, cross member and hardware to install from SST for $3562 shipped. Will use with 3.73 posi 12 bolt. Replacing my M22 which has a terrible 1st gear and 1.00 4th.
Brett......
Brett......
There is a chart that I saved from this website. The two axes on the chart lists different tire sizes vs. the rear axle ratios. The chart will give you rpm the engine will run with a certain tire diameter and axle ratio. What makes the chart useful is the rpms are colored. I assume the yellow color is economy rpms. The green is normal mode. The blue is performance. I think you should try to stay out of the white area.
Post 15:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/27-transmission-driveline/416114-12-bolt-advice-needed.html
From the chart: If I have a 3.73 axle ratio and I am running a 26" tall tire, my rpm will be 3133. I am in the blue performance area. If I have an 0.80 overdrive then my effective axle ratio becomes. 3.73 *0.80 = 2.98. If I look at the chart the closest axle ratio is 2.94. The new rpm is around 2470. I am in the yellow part of the graph. If my overdrive would have a lower number than 0.80 then I would go into the white area which might make the overdrive useless.
I think the chart is a little oversimplified because it doesn't take in account the torque curve of the engine. A radical camshaft that is designed to operate at high rpms will not provide adequate torque at low rpms when the transmission is in overdrive.
If I am interpreting the chart incorrectly, please let me know.
Post 15:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/27-transmission-driveline/416114-12-bolt-advice-needed.html
From the chart: If I have a 3.73 axle ratio and I am running a 26" tall tire, my rpm will be 3133. I am in the blue performance area. If I have an 0.80 overdrive then my effective axle ratio becomes. 3.73 *0.80 = 2.98. If I look at the chart the closest axle ratio is 2.94. The new rpm is around 2470. I am in the yellow part of the graph. If my overdrive would have a lower number than 0.80 then I would go into the white area which might make the overdrive useless.
I think the chart is a little oversimplified because it doesn't take in account the torque curve of the engine. A radical camshaft that is designed to operate at high rpms will not provide adequate torque at low rpms when the transmission is in overdrive.
If I am interpreting the chart incorrectly, please let me know.
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
When my car was on the road i was running a shafiroff 434 sb that had 534 hp and 550 tq
I have a tko 600 with .64
4.11 rear gears with 26” tires
I would cruise at 65 mph with a low rpm comparable to a modern car. I remember it being aroun 1500rpm
And it got there real quick :blush:
I have a tko 600 with .64
4.11 rear gears with 26” tires
I would cruise at 65 mph with a low rpm comparable to a modern car. I remember it being aroun 1500rpm
And it got there real quick :blush:
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Good info Patrick.
It seems like common sense to me that there is a point on each end of the spectrum where either 1st gear or the OD could become, as you say, "useless" depending on the rear gear you have in the car ... especially in a strictly street driven car..
What I have learned here is that the TKO transmissions have a lower first gear than a stock Muncie, (and of course a higher OD gear) so a common factory rear gear should not be a big problem there. Even something like a 3.08 or you might get away a 2.73 at the low end of the spectrum.
However that 3.08 might be a problem(??) on the high side if you try to run the .64 ... the .82 might be a happier place with a taller rear gear in the car.
It seems to me the *sweet spot* might be in the 3.25 to 3.73 rear gear ratio.
If you have 4.10 in the rear you could make first gear "useless".
Moliveira, I have learned a quite a bit here from your thread. Hopefully me barging in for my own purposes has brought in more info for you as well.
My guess is that your 3.55 is right in the sweet spot. I bet for you, John is absolutely correct.
I need to check today, but I think my rear is 3.08. I tried a 2.73 years ago and it was just too tall, especially for my Wife to drive. I changed it out. Heck with the TKO low gears that 2.73 might have been OK. :wink2:
Anyway, I apologize for barging in like I did.
It seems like common sense to me that there is a point on each end of the spectrum where either 1st gear or the OD could become, as you say, "useless" depending on the rear gear you have in the car ... especially in a strictly street driven car..
What I have learned here is that the TKO transmissions have a lower first gear than a stock Muncie, (and of course a higher OD gear) so a common factory rear gear should not be a big problem there. Even something like a 3.08 or you might get away a 2.73 at the low end of the spectrum.
However that 3.08 might be a problem(??) on the high side if you try to run the .64 ... the .82 might be a happier place with a taller rear gear in the car.
It seems to me the *sweet spot* might be in the 3.25 to 3.73 rear gear ratio.
If you have 4.10 in the rear you could make first gear "useless".
Moliveira, I have learned a quite a bit here from your thread. Hopefully me barging in for my own purposes has brought in more info for you as well.
My guess is that your 3.55 is right in the sweet spot. I bet for you, John is absolutely correct.
I need to check today, but I think my rear is 3.08. I tried a 2.73 years ago and it was just too tall, especially for my Wife to drive. I changed it out. Heck with the TKO low gears that 2.73 might have been OK. :wink2:
Anyway, I apologize for barging in like I did.
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Steven, I'm guessing you don't even need first gear when driving the car around town.
Can you tell us anything abut that?
I remember driving my Dad's truck. No one ever used first gear unless they were pulling a big load up the mountain. We called it *Granny*:wink2:
Can you tell us anything abut that?
I remember driving my Dad's truck. No one ever used first gear unless they were pulling a big load up the mountain. We called it *Granny*:wink2:
Joined
·
392 Posts
I have a stout 454 BB with a TKO600 .64 OD, 4.10 rear gears, and a 28" Dia rear tire.
The first gear take off feel is equivalent to 4.56 gears, it's not useless to me at all and is actually really fun! Cruising the freeway at 70mph is around 2300rpm and I get around 16 mpg. I absolutely love this transmission, and no shifting issues at all!
I think Hurst drivelines has a calculator for this stuff as well.
The first gear take off feel is equivalent to 4.56 gears, it's not useless to me at all and is actually really fun! Cruising the freeway at 70mph is around 2300rpm and I get around 16 mpg. I absolutely love this transmission, and no shifting issues at all!
I think Hurst drivelines has a calculator for this stuff as well.
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
First gear wasnt useless. But now that im in the middle of a frame off resto i went with 3.73’s bolted to a trutrac diff.
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Thanks for the first hand input Mike.
I can see that a lot of this is going to be in the *eye of the beholder*.
Right now I am driving a 3.08 rear with a 2.20 first gear and don't see any problem with it at all.
You are driving a 4.10 rear with a 2.87 first and saying it's not useless, in fact it's "fun".
That's a pretty huge difference. :surprise:
I'd imagine if we swapped cars for a day we would both be pretty struck at the standing take off.
A lot of how we appreciate these differences involves how we use the car, I'm sure.
I can imagine the change from 2.20 to 2.87 might be a welcome difference in my car though ... even though I don't sense a problem now. My concern might lean more to wondering if the .64 is too much OD with my 3.08 rear gears and moderate 350cid
I can see that a lot of this is going to be in the *eye of the beholder*.
Right now I am driving a 3.08 rear with a 2.20 first gear and don't see any problem with it at all.
You are driving a 4.10 rear with a 2.87 first and saying it's not useless, in fact it's "fun".
That's a pretty huge difference. :surprise:
I'd imagine if we swapped cars for a day we would both be pretty struck at the standing take off.
A lot of how we appreciate these differences involves how we use the car, I'm sure.
I can imagine the change from 2.20 to 2.87 might be a welcome difference in my car though ... even though I don't sense a problem now. My concern might lean more to wondering if the .64 is too much OD with my 3.08 rear gears and moderate 350cid
Joined
·
392 Posts
Larry,
Take a look at the calculator on the Hurst Drivelines website, choose transmission, plug in your rear tire specs, your rear gear, and speed. It will tell you your current Muncie rpm, chosen TKO rpm, and your equivalent rear gear based on which TKO chosen. Looks like a 3.08 would be equivalent to a 3.52, and yes with a 3.08 you may be lugging it with a .64 OD depending on what speed you shift to OD.
Looks like I misquoted my 4.10 @ 4.56 (don't recall where I got that) but this calculator says 4.10 is equivalent to a 4.67.
https://www.hurst-drivelines.com/hdc-rpm-calculator-2/
Mike
Take a look at the calculator on the Hurst Drivelines website, choose transmission, plug in your rear tire specs, your rear gear, and speed. It will tell you your current Muncie rpm, chosen TKO rpm, and your equivalent rear gear based on which TKO chosen. Looks like a 3.08 would be equivalent to a 3.52, and yes with a 3.08 you may be lugging it with a .64 OD depending on what speed you shift to OD.
Looks like I misquoted my 4.10 @ 4.56 (don't recall where I got that) but this calculator says 4.10 is equivalent to a 4.67.
https://www.hurst-drivelines.com/hdc-rpm-calculator-2/
Mike
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Thanks Mike.
I intend to change my tire size slightly from 205/70 to 215/70
Using that and the calculator I get the following:
Right now with 205s and Muncie at 70 MPH I am turning 2756 RPM
With the new tires and the .82 TKO I would be turning 2213 RPM
Drop the MPH to 55 and I'm at 1739
With the .64 at 70 MPH I would be turning 1727 RPM
Drop the MPH to 55 and I'm at 1357 RPM
I agree ... in my case I think the highway speed threshold could get pretty "shifty".
I'm not sure what a SBC 350 can tolerate that way.
If I had the 500 HP torque monster 460 from my Mach1 in there I might get away with it.
I intend to change my tire size slightly from 205/70 to 215/70
Using that and the calculator I get the following:
Right now with 205s and Muncie at 70 MPH I am turning 2756 RPM
With the new tires and the .82 TKO I would be turning 2213 RPM
Drop the MPH to 55 and I'm at 1739
With the .64 at 70 MPH I would be turning 1727 RPM
Drop the MPH to 55 and I'm at 1357 RPM
I agree ... in my case I think the highway speed threshold could get pretty "shifty".
I'm not sure what a SBC 350 can tolerate that way.
If I had the 500 HP torque monster 460 from my Mach1 in there I might get away with it.
Joined
·
18,696 Posts
Ok
.064 With 3.55s and lower like a 3.73 your rpm at freeway speeds of 70+ will be mid to low 2000. With the .82 you be at 3000.
You can use a higher rear end gear such as a 3.08 to get the freeway rpm down but then you forfeit your low end.
IMO .64 with 3.73 is ideal
Get this Tremec app and you can compare
TREMEC Toolbox App
.064 With 3.55s and lower like a 3.73 your rpm at freeway speeds of 70+ will be mid to low 2000. With the .82 you be at 3000.
You can use a higher rear end gear such as a 3.08 to get the freeway rpm down but then you forfeit your low end.
IMO .64 with 3.73 is ideal
Get this Tremec app and you can compare
TREMEC Toolbox App
Joined
·
18,696 Posts
With that set up 65 mph would be 2210 rpm in 5th gear
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
This is not intended as argumentative, though I realize it may seem so.:wink2:
Not sure the Tremec app is necessary, the Hurst link appears to give the same results within a few RPM.
The 3.55 or 3.73 (w/.82) do not put RPMs anywhere near 3,000. The numbers per the Hurst link are more like 2757 and 2624.
And as you point out "in your opinion" the 3.73 and .64 are the best ... certainly no problem for me.
IMO if I am running a 3.08 and 2.20 first gear and it's treating me just fine for my daily driver car purposes ... I honestly think (what I would view as) some sort of super low end first gear would equal nothing more than that "granny gear" in my Dad's old truck. I don't mind forfeiting something I view as "useless". Edited to add: Calculator shows RPM at 70 to be 2213, right about where the 3.73/.64 (2152) ends up.
It goes back to the idea of, better for what? ... and better for who?
As for me I'd rather keep my existing 3.08 go to the TKO .82 and gain a easier 1st gear ratio and also a better highway ratio. All of it being IMO useful for my purposes.
If someone else gets a kick out of launching from a standstill and pressing passengers back in their seats while the engine winds up the RPMs ... That's Ok with me.
I have to say though I learned a quite a bit here and it happened because of your declarative statement. You helped me with what will be a future project. I thank You! :smile2:
Joined
·
18,696 Posts
.064 With 3.55s and lower like a 3.73 your rpm at freeway speeds of 70+ will be mid to low 2000. With the .82 you be at 3000[/quote]
Just clarifying not arguing I used 75 mph for my comparison
75 mph with 3.73 and 26" tire is .82 OD 2966 rpm
With 3.08 2449
Living in Vegas if you're driving on the freeway or 215 beltway 65-70 you get run over.
2450 rpm is fine you just give up a little on the low end
Just clarifying not arguing I used 75 mph for my comparison
75 mph with 3.73 and 26" tire is .82 OD 2966 rpm
With 3.08 2449
Living in Vegas if you're driving on the freeway or 215 beltway 65-70 you get run over.
2450 rpm is fine you just give up a little on the low end
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
I'm happy to hear that Mitch.
I tend to be a bit unfiltered and realize sometimes my commentary might appear as an attack. :frown2:
Anyway, I think the trick here is that most of us are not working from a blank canvas.
We have a car with certain characteristics and most of us (since it's our car) are use to those characteristics and consider it to be *normal*. While we may seek to change something, we still have that existing beginning point. Not to mention we may even be working with a tight budget.
If one guy has 3.73 gears and goes to 3.08 then (as John states) ... he is giving up low end gearing.
If a guy has 3.08 and considers that *normal* then going to the TKO and getting that lower first gear ... he is not giving up a thing, he is gaining low end gearing.
It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Especially as you approach far ends of the rear gear spectrum.
Thanks for responding, I'd hate to think you felt that I had wrecked your thread. :wink2:
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you figure out the pig enjoys it. I am enjoying this thread. So far it has been civilized.
I worked on a project in Round Mountain, NV. The closest hotel was in Tonopha, NV. Everyday I would make that long drive. The Jeep Cherokee I rented top end speed was faster if the transmission was not in overdrive.
Tremic makes a 6 speed transmission with gear ratios of 0.8 and 0.63 for fifth and sixth gears respectively. With a five speed transmission, you have to pick one or the other. The 6 speed costs more and you might have to cut a hole in the floor pan. First gear is 2.66. It would be nice if the owners of the six speed transmission would share which gear they use more for cruising, 5th or 6th.
What confuses me is the 6L90 automatic. First gear has a 4.0 ratio.
I worked on a project in Round Mountain, NV. The closest hotel was in Tonopha, NV. Everyday I would make that long drive. The Jeep Cherokee I rented top end speed was faster if the transmission was not in overdrive.
Tremic makes a 6 speed transmission with gear ratios of 0.8 and 0.63 for fifth and sixth gears respectively. With a five speed transmission, you have to pick one or the other. The 6 speed costs more and you might have to cut a hole in the floor pan. First gear is 2.66. It would be nice if the owners of the six speed transmission would share which gear they use more for cruising, 5th or 6th.
What confuses me is the 6L90 automatic. First gear has a 4.0 ratio.
Joined
·
18,696 Posts
The Tremec T56 works well with lower gears 3.90 - 4.11
I used 3.55 with an GM LS T56 6-speed in my LS7 car 6th gear was only good from 100 mph up
BW T56 Gear Ratios : 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.00, .74, .50.
I used 3.90s in my LS3/525 car with the Tremec T56 Magnum which was much better for street driving
Comparing the T56 and the TKO600 I don't think it's worth the extra money and work on the tunnel.
The last 2 swaps we used TKO600s and I also used a TKO600 on my recent SS396 car. Shifter works in the console without mods
1967 Camaro coupe. Daily driver restored in remembrance of my 1967 Camaro SS350 from years gone by.
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
The console fit would be very important to me. My 67 has the factory console.
21 - 40 of 47 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
