Team Camaro Tech banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

67 Transmission Issues

Jump to Latest
61 - 80 of 219 Posts
#62 ·
scblucam said:
Only M22 came with a drain plug.
Click to expand...
been 50 years since I had a Muncie Mxx so apologies if I misspoke about Op's Muncie. I put one in my PG 57 chevy, 55 truck and 65 GTO...but like most things in the 70's some are a blur noow :)

He just got the car and IIRC its his first manual trans so certainly a learning curve. But like any used car you need to go through the basics like fluid changes if unknown history. If no drain plug you can use the same simple pump fill you would use to fill it in reverse (putting pick up hose in trans and pumping fluid out)

My other car was a auto but I put in a T56 with McLeod twin disc clutch. Completely different feel than the old manual linkage trans of the Mxx cars I had

His clutch return spring and shifter alignment will go a long way to improving his driving experience. The rest is just shifts under his belt

I also don't know if his shifter is stock or is a HURST Comp+ one. If stock I would go with the C+
 
#63 ·
Steve, Before you take your Camaro to a shop, be sure to recheck a couple simple things.
The first thing is to wait until you have your clutch fork return spring and rod installed and adjust the threaded clutch rod for proper clutch adjustment.
Also check to confirm that all hardware used to mount the shifter to the trans (nuts, bolts, etc) are securely tightened.

Question: As you were replacing the shift linkage bushing... maybe one of the shifter rod pins was inserted into a shifter arm the wrong way???
Compare the photos below with your current setup.
  • The Reverse and 1-2 shift rod pins are inserted into the shift arms from the trans case side (red arrow).
  • The 3-4 shift rod pin is inserted into the shift arm from the opposite side of the trans case (green arrow).
Red and Green circles explained below.
264223

The green circle is represented in the photo below.
Notice the correct orientation of the shifter rod pins into the shifter arms.
264224

Below are the Hurst's instructions for adjusting the shifter.
  • There is a 1/4 inch hole at the bottom of the Hurst mechanism that runs through all three levers. This is called the neutral alignment hole. To ensure proper adjustment, run the shifter from first into second and then back to neutral. Insert the neutral alignment pin (or a 1/4 inch drill bit) into the neutral alignment hole. If the 1-2 lever interferes with the smooth insertion of the alignment pin, remove the 1-2 linkage rod from the shifter and thread the adjuster button either in or out to eliminate the interference. Repeat this procedure with the 3-4 lever and reverse.
And the last thing to check/adjust is your shifter stops (red circles shown in top photo of this post).
There is a possibility that the one... or both of your shift stops may be turned in too far and not allowing the shifter to fully engage the selected gear. Below are instructions for adjusting the shifter stops.
  • To adjust the stop bolts, back the bolts out of the shifter frame until only a few threads remain. Push the stick firmly into third gear and hold. Screw in the stop bolt until contact is made. Release the stick and back the stop bolt out one turn and tighten the jamnut. Push the stick into fourth gear and repeat the procedure.
I am hoping the fix is simple and avoids a trip to an auto repair shop.

P.S.... One last observation. I am not sure if this is contributing to your shifting issues, but just wanted to point it out.
In one of your videos, I was able to observe the slip yoke from the driveshaft inserted in the the transmission tail housing. Below are a couple photos from the video (some are blurry).

Is it me... or does the slip yoke seem to be inserted too far into the transmission tail housing. I always looked for about 3/4"- 1" of the machined portion of the slip yoke to be showing. In the photos, it appears to be less.
264225
 
#64 ·
Steve to get that gear grind sitting still the input shaft had to be still spinning as in clutch still engaged or partially engaged.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#65 ·
Scott I agree. The clutch engagement if off, could really contribute to the grinding of gears and a difficulty shifting.

Brett......
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #67 ·
Hey everyone!

First of all, you guys are all pretty cool. Thanks so much for not making me feel like a total moron. I feel the positivity and encouragement.

The crazy thing about that last drive, was that horrible sound and awful feeling when I shifted from REVERSE - NEUTRAL - FIRST.
It happened twice, and only when I shifted in that order. First time around 1:20 and 1:30 in the video, second time around 9:50 in the video.

Why was the car driving fantastic, but when I went through that sequence of R-N-1, it felt like a small bomb went off?
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
RifRaf said:
Good job finding another source for the parts needed (y)
Based on the description, they appear to be the correct items.

I am not sure about the "bracket"... as I did not have one when I was running a 4 speed manual trans (but I also had a small block). But I did find a photo of one, and it looks like the bracket was used when running stock exhaust manifolds (see below). So if you have headers (which I believe you do), you probably do not need this bracket.
View attachment 264157

I was hoping that someone on TC that has... or had a big bock 1st gen with headers and a 4 speed manual might chime in with some additional details. I vaguely remember having to attach the return spring to a hole... or a bolt in the drivers side subfame (not the crossmember) to clear the headers... but it's been so long ago, I can't be sure.
The main thing is to find a spot where you can attach the return spring so it clears the headers during clutch movement and pulls the clutch fork back towards the front of the car.

As previously mentioned, be sure to adjust the threaded rod that engages to clutch fork so there is about 1/2"-1" of free play between the end of the threaded rod and the cup portion of the clutch fork when the clutch is engaged. Failure to properly adjust your clutch linkage (to tight / no free play) could result in burning up your thow-out bearing very quickly due to continuously spinning on the clutch pressure plate diaphram.
Click to expand...
I do have headers. So yes, I'll have to work around those somehow. They take up a lot of space.

Question - when the clutch rod separated from the clutch fork, I tightened back up and it's been in place ever since. Could it be too tight and have caused that horrible sound in the Reverse - Neutral - 1st sequence or had something to do with burins up the throw out bearing (for being too tight)?
 
Discussion starter · #69 ·
SoCal805 said:
been 50 years since I had a Muncie Mxx so apologies if I misspoke about Op's Muncie. I put one in my PG 57 chevy, 55 truck and 65 GTO...but like most things in the 70's some are a blur noow :)

He just got the car and IIRC its his first manual trans so certainly a learning curve. But like any used car you need to go through the basics like fluid changes if unknown history. If no drain plug you can use the same simple pump fill you would use to fill it in reverse (putting pick up hose in trans and pumping fluid out)

My other car was a auto but I put in a T56 with McLeod twin disc clutch. Completely different feel than the old manual linkage trans of the Mxx cars I had

His clutch return spring and shifter alignment will go a long way to improving his driving experience. The rest is just shifts under his belt

I also don't know if his shifter is stock or is a HURST Comp+ one. If stock I would go with the C+
Click to expand...
I am not sure what shifter it is. I haven't looked. I know it's a Hurst, so I've been assuming C+.
RifRaf said:
As you were replacing the shift linkage bushing... ma
Click to expand...
RifRaf said:
Steve, Before you take your Camaro to a shop, be sure to recheck a couple simple things.
The first thing is to wait until you have your clutch fork return spring and rod installed and adjust the threaded clutch rod for proper clutch adjustment.
Also check to confirm that all hardware used to mount the shifter to the trans (nuts, bolts, etc) are securely tightened.

Question: As you were replacing the shift linkage bushing... maybe one of the shifter rod pins was inserted into a shifter arm the wrong way???
Compare the photos below with your current setup.
  • The Reverse and 1-2 shift rod pins are inserted into the shift arms from the trans case side (red arrow).
  • The 3-4 shift rod pin is inserted into the shift arm from the opposite side of the trans case (green arrow).
Red and Green circles explained below.
View attachment 264223
The green circle is represented in the photo below.
Notice the correct orientation of the shifter rod pins into the shifter arms.
View attachment 264224
Below are the Hurst's instructions for adjusting the shifter.
  • There is a 1/4 inch hole at the bottom of the Hurst mechanism that runs through all three levers. This is called the neutral alignment hole. To ensure proper adjustment, run the shifter from first into second and then back to neutral. Insert the neutral alignment pin (or a 1/4 inch drill bit) into the neutral alignment hole. If the 1-2 lever interferes with the smooth insertion of the alignment pin, remove the 1-2 linkage rod from the shifter and thread the adjuster button either in or out to eliminate the interference. Repeat this procedure with the 3-4 lever and reverse.
And the last thing to check/adjust is your shifter stops (red circles shown in top photo of this post).
There is a possibility that the one... or both of your shift stops may be turned in too far and not allowing the shifter to fully engage the selected gear. Below are instructions for adjusting the shifter stops.
  • To adjust the stop bolts, back the bolts out of the shifter frame until only a few threads remain. Push the stick firmly into third gear and hold. Screw in the stop bolt until contact is made. Release the stick and back the stop bolt out one turn and tighten the jamnut. Push the stick into fourth gear and repeat the procedure.
I am hoping the fix is simple and avoids a trip to an auto repair shop.

P.S.... One last observation. I am not sure if this is contributing to your shifting issues, but just wanted to point it out.
In one of your videos, I was able to observe the slip yoke from the driveshaft inserted in the the transmission tail housing. Below are a couple photos from the video (some are blurry).

Is it me... or does the slip yoke seem to be inserted too far into the transmission tail housing. I always looked for about 3/4"- 1" of the machined portion of the slip yoke to be showing. In the photos, it appears to be less.
View attachment 264225
Click to expand...

I think the rods are inserted correctly. I copied how it was before, plus also how it was from the Hurst Alignment Video tutorial.

I hope this doesn't come across as a shortcut -- I did not completely take rods off. I only removed the reverse rod and the 1-2 rod from the shifter side. Because I am not able to take the entire transmission out of the car, and I am a large guy, I could barely even fit under the car to work on the shifter levers. And since the problem only occurred when shifting from Reverse to 1st, I'm worried it was because of something I did. Because that's all I adjusted. I did slightly adjust the 3-4 rod into alignment, without actually taking it apart, but 3-4 was not an issue on the last drive.
Did I mess something up? Seems like I did, since that horrible sound never happened before, and now it happens from R-N-1, which is what I took apart and reassembled.

I can get under the car tomorrow and take some video showing how it is now.
I haven't been under after that last run in the last video, so I don't know if it's out of alignment again.

Ahhhh I can't wait to drive it again. It's amazing! Which you all understand.
 
#71 ·
Steve in CA said:
I do have headers. So yes, I'll have to work around those somehow. They take up a lot of space.

Question - when the clutch rod separated from the clutch fork, I tightened back up and it's been in place ever since. Could it be too tight and have caused that horrible sound in the Reverse - Neutral - 1st sequence or had something to do with burins up the throw out bearing (for being too tight)?
Click to expand...
Yes, I do think that could contribute to the issue. When I installed my clutch, I read that there should be some play of the pedal while static.The pedal should have 1/2" play. But that entails not having the clutch push rod tight against the clutch fork. Mine has approx. 1/8" - 3/16" between the end of the rod and the dimple bottom of the clutch fork. I was afraid it could fall out, but it has not. I left some room between the rod and fork, then went up to the pedal and check the pedal play. This will insure that the throwout bearing is in a free state and not being bound by your clutch push rod being too tight.

Brett......
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steve in CA
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#72 ·
Gears clashing can sound like a lot of things. Actually not the gears but the syncros and sliders. Look a th digram of the Muncie and see how it works. I am no expert but understand the basics. Bigger the $$ the worse the sound. That said, if the if you are sitting still and the input shaft is not moving there will not be an explosion sound. I always remember trying to shift into reverse and getting the clash. Might have been in a hurry back then. Oh, as I recall reverse does not have a syncro. Main thing is first or reverse complete disengagement from the clutch. Some times even if your clutch is disengaged the input shaft has not stopped and you may get the grind. Patience unless you are being shot at. You have massive resources here, you will get it.
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
You're right, Scott. Patience is the key here. I need to slow down. My wife and I made a big investment in this car, and I don't want to make things worse. I have this belief I can do anything, but starting out as a car mechanic on a classic 67 might not be the best place to learn. I still want to fix it though. It would be incredibly satisfying. Wheels are spinning in my head (no pun intended). I need to sort through all the comments, get under the car, take some pictures, and reevaluate. Thanks for being there guys.
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
Brettallen59 said:
Yes, I do think that could contribute to the issue. When I installed my clutch, I read that there should be some play of the pedal while static.The pedal should have 1/2" play. But that entails not having the clutch push rod tight against the clutch fork. Mine has approx. 1/8" - 3/16" between the end of the rod and the dimple bottom of the clutch fork. I was afraid it could fall out, but it has not. I left some room between the rod and fork, then went up to the pedal and check the pedal play. This will insure that the throwout bearing is in a free state and not being bound by your clutch push rod being too tight.

Brett......
Click to expand...
Hey Brett, could the throwout bearing have caused that horrible sound and feeling the car produced when switching from REVERSE to NEUTRAL to 1ST?

I do know that I only removed rods for Reverse and 1-2 when realigning the shifter, and the problem happened when shifting between those rods.
 
#75 ·
If the Throwout Bearing was bad, it can be felt through the clutch pedal and heard when you have the engine running and the noise changes with the RPM's.
I think going back to the basics and doing what the guys said;
Put the shifter in neutral - Take off the rods - take pictures so you know exactly which orientation they go back on.
Then with all of the levers close to neutral, put the rod through the hole, placing all of the shifter levers right where they need to be.
So here's the trick - With the rod in place, the levers are set. Now you take the first rod and without pulling or pushing it see how close the locating bar slides into the lever. Don't force it. If it looks like the locating bar will only fit by threading it out (longer) then rotate it on the rod one revolution. See if it slides into the lever now without pulling it or pushing on it. If not, then rotate the threaded locating bar one more revolution. Keep working all the rods like this until the rods (like the orientation that they were in on the shifter levers-in front or in back) slide into the shifter levers without pushing or pulling on the rods. Then the shifter should be set pretty good.
The other setting ids the stop bolts that limit the travel of the shifter to not go farther than it should.

As far as the grinding, if the tranny syncro's are okay, then it should not grind when going into gear. But, the way you shift could have some affect on the grind.
With the clutch pedal completely depressed, shift with purpose, but not forceful. Usually, there are two phases (unless you are speed-shifting).
First, you pull it out of gear, then you push (or pull) it into the next gear. The whole process takes about one second. The first phase is the "One Thousand" - Pushing in the clutch, letting off the gas & pulling it out, then the "And one" - putting it in & letting the clutch out as you give it gas.
If you get a grind, then try shifting quicker.

You are correct though, that if you are a large person, or old (like me), it is a pretty good chore to get down there in order to spend this amount of time to get all of this done. If you decided to get someone to work on it for you, tell them the two things you need are the clutch re-adjusted and the shift linkage re-aligned. There should be someone on this site that lives close enough to you that could come over and help you out. It just with this pandemic thing it is understandable that you might not get as many takers as you would have a year ago.
I wish you success and hope you get it worked out soon.

Brett.....
264233

264234
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steve in CA
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#76 ·
Steve
Unless you have a thick wallet you should attempt to do as much work on the 67 as you can. Get yourself some good tall jack stands and a good floor jack. You need to get the car up high enough to work on. I built wood cribbing so I can have the tires sitting securely on them. It takes some time getting the car up that high as you have to do it in increments using jackstands then cribbing and you will need a 6 x 4 block for the floor jack to get the increased purchase from it

The described method of removing the shift rods, turning one rotation so they just slide into the holes, repeat if needed vs forcing the rod in while using the 1/4" rod/drill bit is the way to align shifter. You gotta get the spring on the clutch linkage, period. If you adjust the rod to tight against clutch fork you will kill the T.O. bearing sooner than later

You also need to confirm that the clutch is fully disengaging with the rear wheels off the ground as previously explained

That grind noise, to me, sounds like classic trans gear grind because clutch was not fully disengaged. Reverse has no syncro. 1-4 do but if syncros are worn you can get grind . More driving you will find the sweet spot and shifting will become second nature
 
Discussion starter · #77 ·
Brettallen59 said:
If the Throwout Bearing was bad, it can be felt through the clutch pedal and heard when you have the engine running and the noise changes with the RPM's.
I think going back to the basics and doing what the guys said;
Put the shifter in neutral - Take off the rods - take pictures so you know exactly which orientation they go back on.
Then with all of the levers close to neutral, put the rod through the hole, placing all of the shifter levers right where they need to be.
So here's the trick - With the rod in place, the levers are set. Now you take the first rod and without pulling or pushing it see how close the locating bar slides into the lever. Don't force it. If it looks like the locating bar will only fit by threading it out (longer) then rotate it on the rod one revolution. See if it slides into the lever now without pulling it or pushing on it. If not, then rotate the threaded locating bar one more revolution. Keep working all the rods like this until the rods (like the orientation that they were in on the shifter levers-in front or in back) slide into the shifter levers without pushing or pulling on the rods. Then the shifter should be set pretty good.
The other setting ids the stop bolts that limit the travel of the shifter to not go farther than it should.

As far as the grinding, if the tranny syncro's are okay, then it should not grind when going into gear. But, the way you shift could have some affect on the grind.
With the clutch pedal completely depressed, shift with purpose, but not forceful. Usually, there are two phases (unless you are speed-shifting).
First, you pull it out of gear, then you push (or pull) it into the next gear. The whole process takes about one second. The first phase is the "One Thousand" - Pushing in the clutch, letting off the gas & pulling it out, then the "And one" - putting it in & letting the clutch out as you give it gas.
If you get a grind, then try shifting quicker.

You are correct though, that if you are a large person, or old (like me), it is a pretty good chore to get down there in order to spend this amount of time to get all of this done. If you decided to get someone to work on it for you, tell them the two things you need are the clutch re-adjusted and the shift linkage re-aligned. There should be someone on this site that lives close enough to you that could come over and help you out. It just with this pandemic thing it is understandable that you might not get as many takers as you would have a year ago.
I wish you success and hope you get it worked out soon.

Brett..... View attachment 264233
View attachment 264234
Click to expand...
Thank you.
 
Discussion starter · #78 ·
Here is the plan for today. I should have done this way back when first suggested.
I will jack up the rear, and see if the clutch is disengaging all the way.

With the car jacked up, I will check to see if the gear shifter remained aligned after I aligned it prior to it's last ride.

I have a question about the console I will address.

I know I have headers, so I'm not certain how to handle the return spring set-up. I'll also check the push rod connector and see if it's too tight.

Look for a video a little later today or tomorrow.
Thank you all!
I absolutely appreciate everyone's help.
 
#79 ·
one of the pictures in this thread showed the return spring was attached to a 2 hole flat stock small bar to the header bolt. If that was a home made thing vs how it is stock it would be very simple to make one. Those kind of plate bars can be found in hardware stores in hinge section also but may need the hole(s) drilled out the size of the header bolt

You absolutely want to get the pedal return spring rigged up
 
61 - 80 of 219 Posts
About this Discussion
218 Replies
16 Participants
Last post:
Vega$69
Team Camaro Tech
posts
2.4M
members
90K
Since
1998
A forum community dedicated to 1st generation Chevy Camaros owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, builds, restoration, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, reviews, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Bench Racing Engine Body Shop Performance Brakes, Suspension & Steering