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1967 grounding problem I think

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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Ok, here's what I have done today.

Battery to block ground is good. Battery to PS fender and braided strap from block to frame good. I added a braided strap from frame to firewall. I ran a temporary ground from Dakota D gauges strait to Battery.

I still need to check door switches and SP lights.

I did find something interesting today that I was unaware of. The lights are still flickering when the car is running because I was watching close to see if some of this work paid off. They did not start flickering for a few seconds until after the car was running. I thought that was odd so I tried this 5 more times. I turned on running lights and a TS and then started the car. I timed 7 to 9 seconds before they started flickering.?
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Door switches are ok. I have the SP lights out and they appear to be ok, but I may add the redundant grounds like someone recommended. I need to go back through the thread and find who that was because I don't know where a good place to add them would be.

There is a TS 90 on one side and a GE 1004 on the other. After searching online most bulbs for a 67 show only 1 contact point and crossing them at the auto parts stores close to me, they crossed to a single contact bulb.

What are you guys using?
 
#23 ·
Rjames40 said:
I did find something interesting today that I was unaware of. The lights are still flickering when the car is running because I was watching close to see if some of this work paid off. They did not start flickering for a few seconds until after the car was running. I thought that was odd so I tried this 5 more times. I turned on running lights and a TS and then started the car. I timed 7 to 9 seconds before they started flickering.?
Click to expand...
What alternator do you have ?

If it's an original style with the external regulator, unplug the regulator with the engine off, then start the car and see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

OR

If it's a newer internally regulated alternator, then with the motor off, unplug the 2 wire connector on the alternator then start the car and see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

OR

If you have a 1 wire alternator, disconnect the battery and then take off the cable on the output post of the alternator, tape it off so it cannot short to ground then reconnect the battery, start the car and then see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

After or between doing any tests with the alternator not producing output, maybe hit the battery for a bit with a charger to keep it's voltage up but do not do the tests with the charger connected to the car so you do not create some other added issue(s).

If the alternator is kicking in and out and producing a higher voltage then a lower one quickly, then this would get the lights to flicker up and down in brightness.

Jim
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
SOA-Nova said:
What alternator do you have ?

If it's an original style with the external regulator, unplug the regulator with the engine off, then start the car and see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

OR

If it's a newer internally regulated alternator, then with the motor off, unplug the 2 wire connector on the alternator then start the car and see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

OR

If you have a 1 wire alternator, disconnect the battery and then take off the cable on the output post of the alternator, tape it off so it cannot short to ground then reconnect the battery, start the car and then see if the same thing happens after 7-9 seconds like what you noticed before.

After or between doing any tests with the alternator not producing output, maybe hit the battery for a bit with a charger to keep it's voltage up but do not do the tests with the charger connected to the car so you do not create some other added issue(s).

If the alternator is kicking in and out and producing a higher voltage then a lower one quickly, then this would get the lights to flicker up and down in brightness.

Jim
Click to expand...
I have the original style alternator with external regulator. Unplugged regulator and started engine with door open to watch SP lights. No flickering. Turned on all interior and exterior lights including headlights and still no flickering after about 5 minutes. I also hooked up volt meter to battery while doing this test and there were no fluctuations in battery draw. It maintained a steady 12.6

I did however try the turn signals while testing and they still dim lights in sequence with the flashing. I thought they probably would since the alternator/regulator was not hooked up and allowing current to battery. Idk

Thank you for your help on this so far. Very much appreciated!

Rick
 
#25 ·
I would start with the front park/turn lights and make sure their ground wire have a good ground connection and tightly screwed to the core support.

If this doesn't solve it, use jumper wires with alligator clips to ground the rear lights.

Hopefully one of these sets of mproved groundings will give you the asnwer.
 
#27 ·
Rjames40 said:
I have the original style alternator with external regulator. Unplugged regulator and started engine with door open to watch SP lights. No flickering. Turned on all interior and exterior lights including headlights and still no flickering after about 5 minutes. I also hooked up volt meter to battery while doing this test and there were no fluctuations in battery draw. It maintained a steady 12.6

I did however try the turn signals while testing and they still dim lights in sequence with the flashing. I thought they probably would since the alternator/regulator was not hooked up and allowing current to battery. Idk

Thank you for your help on this so far. Very much appreciated!

Rick
Click to expand...

So I have to think that when the engine is running and charging the voltage is swinging up and down to create the flickering on all of the lights.

Now that the flickering occurs from the flashers coming on and then going off still with the alternator not affecting the swinging of the voltage, then I wonder if the flashing is from some voltage drops on the power side through all of the connections and such. I know it's also important to have good and correct grounds but to get the turn signals on, you have to have the ignition switch on which that part of the car has it's hosts of more than just one connections and since the ignition switch is getting power from the one main power wire in the bulkhead connector as well as the dome lights getting the power from the same wire (and the headlights too) is maybe due to more and more increased loads on that single power feed wire and it's related connections now the voltage is dropping and you now see the flickering effect.

In post #5 of yours you showed a meter that has a peak hold feature and maybe read up on it and compare the peak voltage drop at the battery and then inside the car at let's say the fuse blocks dome light fuse connection or at the turn signal flashers power input side.

When doing tests at two different points try and reference the ground to just one spot like the battery negative terminal. If you do a test with one having the meter grounded to the battery and then on another test ground the meter to a spot under the dash, you don't know if there is an issue on just the power side or a combination of issues on the power and/or the ground side.

Jim
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
SoCal805 said:
If for any reason you change your VR, consider a solid-state version like Tuff Stuff. Made in USA. Amazon
Click to expand...
I may get a SS VR just to put on the shelf. And then re-check grounds on parking lights and tail lights with a separate ground. I will then work on Jim's suggested tests. This may take some time, but I'm determined to figure this out, as long as I have help from you guys.
 
#29 ·
Rjames40 said:
I may get a SS VR just to put on the shelf.
Click to expand...
While they do make solid state voltage regulators, the factory original one I still have on my 68 Nova is working fine once again after I adjusted it properly. Someone before me thought they could just crank down the internal adjuster screw to make things better but found out with it adjusted wrong I had almost 16V across the battery terminals. Yep the lights were bright but not right so after adjusting it, the regulator has been working just fine.

While I have been checking my charging system though the years I did notice and read that the original mechanical voltage regulators are temperature compensating and then I wonder, are the solid state ones the same ?.

I was worried about my original external regulator at some point going south as it has contact points inside so I bought another correct date coded one to have available if needed.

I have heard about people replacing a regulator and then the pulsing light output quits but I then wonder was it an actual regulator issue or an issue with the connection to it on the 4 wire plug that after unplugging it off the old regulator and plugging it into the new one, better connections were made ?.

On a side note too I also bought an external to internal regulator wiring conversion kit and have that in the trunk to where if I am out somewhere (or is someone needs it) and do not have access to replace what I have (alternator and/or external regulator) I can bolt in and plug in a newer style internally regulated model alternator.

Jim
 
#30 ·
IDK if OP's VR is his core problem but only suggested to consider a solid state one if replacing it. For me, my original type was failing output at idle and also subsequently my stock 3 wire ALT went bad with the low glow GEN light on at idle

I have HEI (Pertronix module in stock distributor) and have read HEI is happier with a SS VR. For me, it has not been any problem since install. I prefer USA made products and have found Tuff Stuff products have worked very well for me.

My 3 wire ALT is just an AC Delco I bought from Summit, 35 amp. I don't have any heavy amp load draws added (EL Fans, big stereo, etc)

Solid wiring connections and grounds are critical to and need to be solid or gremlins will show their faces
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
I am learning so much here I don't know if my ol brain can handle it, but anyway I have some good news. I re-checked grounds on parking lights and rear lights. Drivers side PL housing has a stud broke off and assembly it looks like Gorilla glue or epoxy holding it in. Light and TS working so I just added a redundant ground for now.

Took rear light assemblies out and cleaned all lights, sockets and everywhere assembly comes in contact with the car. Put it all back together without the exterior sealing gaskets because there wasn't any when I took it apart. Started car and didn't notice any light flickering at idle. Turned on all lights and still no flickering until I turned on TS or 4- ways. They still dim in sequence with the flasher, but not as bad.

I did run the 2 wires directly back to the tail light assemblies from battery and didn't notice any difference.

O well, on to the positive wires like Jim suggested. I downloaded the manual on the Fluke meter, but haven't had a chance to look at yet.

Again I thank you all for the help.

Rick
 
#32 ·
Rjames40 said:
I am learning so much here I don't know if my ol brain can handle it.

I downloaded the manual on the Fluke meter, but haven't had a chance to look at yet.

Again I thank you all for the help.

Rick
Click to expand...
I used the peak hold feature on my fluke years ago as I had a customer that after I put a new radio in his car he was driving down the road and just the audio cut out. The display stayed lit and worked fine.

I put my meter on the battery and only so often when the engine was revved the meter then caught a peak voltage of 18V. The radio's audio was going into protect from too much voltage but the display we guess just didn't care.

He put on a new alternator and the audio issues went away.

The meter should also be able to measure the lowest voltage when things like the starter is turning over the motor.

Jim
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
As I started on the positive wire testing I thought I would remove the wrap and the electrical tape on the outside to get familiar with some of the wire colors and see what others have done.

A wire terminated with a wire nut on it. It's hot and testing the same as the battery. Looks like the only place it could have reached is the horn rely.

And then there's this.

5 wires. 1 to horn relay(left side), 1 to VR, 1 to alternator, 1 to wire that's terminated w/wire nut and 1 that runs in the harness going behind the rad support and appears to run over to PS.

The large red wire coming from the firewall runs to the right side of horn relay.



Keeping in mind this is an rs with headlight doors and motors, but no motors are there. I'm guessing that's what all the plugs are for.

There is also a large red wire on the positive battery connection (PS) that runs down to the headlight bucket area and then across the radiator support to DS.

Not sure if any of this is causing my issue, but wanted to keep getting as much info posted as I run across it.

Again, much appreciated for the help.

Rick
 

Attachments

#34 ·
Rjames40 said:
I am learning so much here I don't know if my ol brain can handle it, but anyway I have some good news. I re-checked grounds on parking lights and rear lights. Drivers side PL housing has a stud broke off and assembly it looks like Gorilla glue or epoxy holding it in. Light and TS working so I just added a redundant ground for now.

Took rear light assemblies out and cleaned all lights, sockets and everywhere assembly comes in contact with the car. Put it all back together without the exterior sealing gaskets because there wasn't any when I took it apart. Started car and didn't notice any light flickering at idle. Turned on all lights and still no flickering until I turned on TS or 4- ways. They still dim in sequence with the flasher, but not as bad.

I did run the 2 wires directly back to the tail light assemblies from battery and didn't notice any difference.

O well, on to the positive wires like Jim suggested. I downloaded the manual on the Fluke meter, but haven't had a chance to look at yet.

Again I thank you all for the help.

Rick
Click to expand...
The taillight sockets are notorious about having grounding problems. The spring clips on the sockets are used to make a ground connection to the taillight housing. A friction joint connection is prone to corrosion. When I replace my wiring harness, I soldered a wire to the spring clips and fastened a lug on the other end of the wire. The lug was under one of the mounting bolts for the taillight housing.




Image




The five wire soldered splice does not look like it was from the factory. I could be wrong. I always cringe when I see different gauge wires soldered together. Which wire feeds this joint? It might be the smallest wire.

I would try to move the longest wires and fasten them to the horn relay screw post if possible. At the bare minimum, I would desolder the joint and slip some heat shrink tubing around the splice and then resolder the connection.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
tp_smith said:
The taillight sockets are notorious about having grounding problems. The spring clips on the sockets are used to make a ground connection to the taillight housing. A friction joint connection is prone to corrosion. When I replace my wiring harness, I soldered a wire to the spring clips and fastened a lug on the other end of the wire. The lug was under one of the mounting bolts for the taillight housing.




View attachment 328533



The five wire soldered splice does not look like it was from the factory. I could be wrong. I always cringe when I see different gauge wires soldered together. Which wire feeds this joint? It might be the smallest wire.

I would try to move the longest wires and fasten them to the horn relay screw post if possible. At the bare minimum, I would desolder the joint and slip some heat shrink tubing around the splice and then resolder the connection.
Click to expand...
All 5 of the wires are large red wires. There is also 2 heavy crimps holding them together, but hard to see in the picture because of the solder. I'm like you in thinking this is probably not factory. I will get something around this to protect it from grounding out, but my biggest concern for now is trying to figure out the light dimming issue.

I do appreciate your reply and I'm taking all responses seriously.
Thank you

Rick
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
SOA-Nova said:
So I have to think that when the engine is running and charging the voltage is swinging up and down to create the flickering on all of the lights.

Now that the flickering occurs from the flashers coming on and then going off still with the alternator not affecting the swinging of the voltage, then I wonder if the flashing is from some voltage drops on the power side through all of the connections and such. I know it's also important to have good and correct grounds but to get the turn signals on, you have to have the ignition switch on which that part of the car has it's hosts of more than just one connections and since the ignition switch is getting power from the one main power wire in the bulkhead connector as well as the dome lights getting the power from the same wire (and the headlights too) is maybe due to more and more increased loads on that single power feed wire and it's related connections now the voltage is dropping and you now see the flickering effect.

In post #5 of yours you showed a meter that has a peak hold feature and maybe read up on it and compare the peak voltage drop at the battery and then inside the car at let's say the fuse blocks dome light fuse connection or at the turn signal flashers power input side.

When doing tests at two different points try and reference the ground to just one spot like the battery negative terminal. If you do a test with one having the meter grounded to the battery and then on another test ground the meter to a spot under the dash, you don't know if there is an issue on just the power side or a combination of issues on the power and/or the ground side.

Jim
Click to expand...
Ok.
At the battery before starting the engine, the reading is 12.45 and inside at the fuse panel the readings are basically the same.

After starting and running at idle (about 800 rpm) the battery was reading 14.43 - 14.46 I then went inside and starting with the courtesy/hazards. 13.70 - 14.09
Stop/tail lamps. 14.73 - 14.76 (higher than the battery)?
I went back to ctsy/hazards and it was now reading 13.72 - 14.56

I was thinking maybe the meter had a low battery, but I remember replacing it not long ago, because it shows a low battery alert.

I did notice the inst/lps never showed anything. 0.000

Any thoughts so far?

Thank you

Rick
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Rjames40 said:
Ok.
At the battery before starting the engine, the reading is 12.45 and inside at the fuse panel the readings are basically the same.

After starting and running at idle (about 800 rpm) the battery was reading 14.43 - 14.46 I then went inside and starting with the courtesy/hazards. 13.70 - 14.09
Stop/tail lamps. 14.73 - 14.76 (higher than the battery)?
I went back to ctsy/hazards and it was now reading 13.72 - 14.56

I was thinking maybe the meter had a low battery, but I remember replacing it not long ago, because it shows a low battery alert.

I did notice the inst/lps never showed anything. 0.000

Any thoughts so far?

Thank you

Rick
Click to expand...
I did also run a ground wire from battery - to inside for the testing.
 
#38 ·
Rjames40 said:
As I started on the positive wire testing I thought I would remove the wrap and the electrical tape on the outside to get familiar with some of the wire colors and see what others have done.

View attachment 328529

A wire terminated with a wire nut on it. It's hot and testing the same as the battery. Looks like the only place it could have reached is the horn rely.

And then there's this.

View attachment 328531

5 wires. 1 to horn relay(left side), 1 to VR, 1 to alternator, 1 to wire that's terminated w/wire nut and 1 that runs in the harness going behind the rad support and appears to run over to PS.

The large red wire coming from the firewall runs to the right side of horn relay.

View attachment 328532

Keeping in mind this is an rs with headlight doors and motors, but no motors are there. I'm guessing that's what all the plugs are for.

There is also a large red wire on the positive battery connection (PS) that runs down to the headlight bucket area and then across the radiator support to DS.

Not sure if any of this is causing my issue, but wanted to keep getting as much info posted as I run across it.

Again, much appreciated for the help.

Rick
Click to expand...
Yep, you will just have to see what is up.

Buried connections with wire nus are not a good thing.

Your picture (and while not super clear so maybe check your camera settings) of what looks like 10 gauge wires all being connected together with a crimp terminal and soldered probably is factory.

This is a main charge wire connection I took out of a 66/67 Chevelle and IS factory:

Image


This connection is what the guy from mad website talks about as being a "splice".

Jim
 
#40 ·
Rjames40 said:
At the battery before starting the engine, the reading is 12.45 and inside at the fuse panel the readings are basically the same.

After starting and running at idle (about 800 rpm) the battery was reading 14.43 - 14.46 I then went inside and starting with the courtesy/hazards. 13.70 - 14.09
Stop/tail lamps. 14.73 - 14.76 (higher than the battery)?
I went back to ctsy/hazards and it was now reading 13.72 - 14.56

I was thinking maybe the meter had a low battery, but I remember replacing it not long ago, because it shows a low battery alert.

I did notice the inst/lps never showed anything. 0.000

Any thoughts so far?

Thank you

Rick
Click to expand...
I have to wonder, with the charging system after your initial startup the voltage may be at a level across the battery and then by the time it takes for you to move to another test point, the alternator has then changed it's output and the batteries charge level has changed and now you then get a different reading. Yes you could be reading a drop but the alternator has a variable output and comes into play sometimes.

When you read a higher voltage at the fuse block this has me thinking this is what is happening. Not to worry as this is normal.

How are the voltages across the different fuses when this are activated like the brake lights being on, the hazards, and such ?. It's one thing sot measure voltage with no load but then it should drop due to the load.

Also too are you keeping the same ground point when you measured the voltage at the battery and then inside at the fuse block ?.

If you wonder if there are voltage drops by the time things get into the interior, make up a section of 10 gauge wire with maybe a 30A fuse at the battery connection and then the other end of this test wire, put it into the fuse blocks fuse for the different locations and see if things get better.

By doing this test wire setup, you will be bypassing a lot of connections already in place.

As far as the INST/LPS not showing power is this fuse will only show power when the parking lights are activated AND may show anywhere from 0V to battery voltage depending on how the dimmer switch on the headlight switch is rotated. This is a variable voltage setup to dim or brighten the dash illumination lights (as well on some cars it also varies the brightness on the heater controls, console lighting and such).

While I had 2 meters I was able back in 2022 to do some testing with one meter hooked to the battery and then the other could be moved to different points and on this photo, just to see how well they both read against each other, both meters hooked to the same two test points they read within 0.01V between them.

Image




Jim
 
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