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69banana

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Over the last several months I have noticed a slight detonation under hard acceleration. While cruising and normal acceleration everything is fine but if I floor it, it pulls hard and runs fine but I can hear a little pinging.

This is a 427 small block I had built about 4 years ago. It was set up with 18 degrees initial timing with 38 degrees at around 3000 rpms. It ran great with no issues. I got a rear main seal leak last year and this issue may have started after I pulled the engine to change the seal.

As I said, unless I floor it everything is fine. The first thing I checked was the rotor and springs and was surprised that the rotor screws were very loose and thought that was the issue. After tightening them it was a little better I think but still heard some pinging under hard acceleration.

I have checked the timing a few times. I had initial set at 18 degrees and full advance around 38 degrees. I backed off my initial to 14 degrees and I think the hard acceleration detonation was a little better but still there.

The MSD and MSD distributor are about 18 years old. Everything looks fine but does it make sense to try changing the rotor, springs and distributor cap? I am hoping it is not the distributor gear. I had it out when the motor was out and everything looked fine. It has an Erson cam and when they ground the cam they sent the builder a distributor gear to use and the builder put it on my distributor.

Today after a cruise I checked the timing again and it is 14 at idle (no vacuum) and increased with higher RPM but today I lost the timing mark at high RPM's. I am guessing at around 3000 RPM's it was flashing with no marks on the balancer and when I lowered the RPMS it would fall back into the marks. I will try another timing light but that seemed weird.

Any suggestions? I am still fine cruising but would like to be able to floor it without hearing any detonation.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I use 93 octane and always have. I have not changed what fuel I use. I don't always use the same station so they would all have to had started getting bad gas around the same time. I guess I could try octane booster and see if that fixes it.
 
How did you decide on 38 degrees of total timing?
 
If you do pull the distributor, check and see how much endplay you have. I shim all mine to .015". I've seen some distributors with .035"+ endplay. That excessive play will cause your timing to fluctuate and the mark on the balancer to move back and forth when you're checking your timing. That's not good.
Image
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
The dyno sheet from the builder showed that they set the timing to 38 degrees total when they tuned it on the dyno. I think that after setting my initial to 14 degrees I am less than 38 degrees total.

I may pull the distributor and look at the gear again to see if it looks ok and can check the end play. I have never done this. Is it just measuring how far the shaft moves in and out?
 
OP, your timing light and mark on damper should be DEAD NUTS steady (read not fluctuating). If it does this, as mentioned, you likely have to much end play so close that to .010-.015. You can buy shims. IMHO 38 degrees "all in" is to much for a built street motor with todays crap gas

Also your dizzy gear may be worn, especially if you are running a bronze gear. Those are sacrificial
 
The dyno sheet from the builder showed that they set the timing to 38 degrees total when they tuned it on the dyno. I think that after setting my initial to 14 degrees I am less than 38 degrees total.

I may pull the distributor and look at the gear again to see if it looks ok and can check the end play. I have never done this. Is it just measuring how far the shaft moves in and out?
That's what I was wanting to know, if they determined optimal timing with the engine on the dyno. I would verify total timing to make sure it is still at 38. Even if you drop it to 36 it won't make too much difference in power.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Thanks, I will check the timing again with another timing light next time drive it. Unless it reads steady through the advance curve, I will pull the distributor and check the gear and end play.

I know that distributor does not have a bronze gear. The gear that the cam grinder sent the builder to pair with the cam was black. Here is a picture of the distributor gear that I took about 2 years ago when I had it out.

 
Looks like a melonized gear (good). I see shims above it. While some engines can tolerate 38 degrees, thats on the tall side of full timing. Engine dynos don't provide the same load as a chassis dyno does id the dyno was just engine and tune. Assuming your timing marks are on spec...and cam was not installed with +/-x degrees of advance, it may be to much so back off a few degrees. The fact detonation minimized when you pulled some out indicates you may need to pull 1-2 degrees more out.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Thanks, I know that the cam was installed straight up (no advance or anything) because I asked if the builder did that and he said that since he gets custom grinds for his cams, he doesn't need to adjust them when installing.

It's just weird that everything was fine until after I reinstalled the engine last year after replacing the rear main seal. I don't know why the timing would need to be retarded after that, but I am fine retarding it more. I'll report back after I recheck the timing and possibly pull the distributor.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Yes, 2 piece RMS. Yes, I pulled the distributor and then set the timing back where it was after the engine was back in.

Update: I just found an old timing light and rechecked the timing. It was 14-15 degrees initial (the timing marks on the balancer are light so I have sharpie marks every 5 degrees to be sure where I am). The light was rock steady as the timing advanced to maybe 36 degrees. I lowered the initial timing to 11-12 degrees so total was maybe 32 degrees and took it for a drive. After retarding the timing, I didn't notice any detonation. The windows were down so it's a little harder to hear but I think I may be good. I will keep monitoring it and if I hear it again, I'll retard some more.

I still may pull the distributor to check the gear at some point. I have 5300 miles on the engine now. When that picture of the distributor gear was taken, I had about 2000 miles on the engine. I'm not sure at what point I can assume I am good with the gears if it still looks the same but I think I am good for now at least.
 
My $.02 is you are good with the lower timing. Your dizzy gear is a iron melonized gear which will last forever and there were shims above it. Your timing does not fluctuate which happens when not enough shim and distributor shaft "walks" up due to the helical gear/shaft slop because not enough shim is in.
 
You said earlier you backed off your initial timing from 18-14*, My experience says it makes pinging worse, you need to retard it ...try 20*. I am having similar situation with my 383 mild, on this site read up near the end...

All the logic I read on timing, doesnt work with my engine...??? noone has the answer... but it runs ok. my idle timing is 28*... to stop pinging..! If I go by theory engine runs totally ****..!! to fix it, I drive it and if it pinged I retarded till it nearly stopped, (5 speed).. and checking it was @28* idle.. go figure....??
 
if your distributor has vacuum advance, you want 20-24 degrees of timing at idle with VA (8-12 base + 16-12 VA) hooked up. As engine RPM increases when driving VA drops and mechanical advance comes in. Ideally 32-35 (aka all in) at about 3k RPM
 
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