One of the '67 Z-28's that I nearly bought last week had a weird trim tag and I am wondering if it was a fake or factory screw up. Would any of you reading this with '67 Camaros take a look at your trim tag the next time you have the hood open and tell me if you find the trim tag data NOT always left justified like most all that I have seen? By this I mean the date was one character space LEFT of the Style numbers located below and the Trim numbers were located one character space to the RIGHT of the Style numbers above. I have seen this on only one other car and it happened to be a '67 Z also???? Thanks,
Weird '67 Trim Tag
Zedder
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One of the '67 Z-28's that I nearly bought last week had a weird trim tag and I am wondering if it was a fake or factory screw up. Would any of you reading this with '67 Camaros take a look at your trim tag the next time you have the hood open and tell me if you find the trim tag data NOT always left justified like most all that I have seen? By this I mean the date was one character space LEFT of the Style numbers located below and the Trim numbers were located one character space to the RIGHT of the Style numbers above. I have seen this on only one other car and it happened to be a '67 Z also???? Thanks,
Theres a whole lot wrong, or at least not normal, with that tag. The paint codes do not start in the normal position, the first, third, and fourth rows of data is out of alignment with other tags made during the same week, The build date is to far over to the left, the interior trim paint code is out of line by about 1/2 space to the right, etc. The only other tag I've seen that has the all the same characteristics is the higher body number (the red one) of the pair of March 67 Z28's with consecutive body numbers. People familiar with those two cars will know about them. Neither of those two tags were made in the same addressograph machine that made all the normal trim tags, as the alignments of each line are significantly different than the normal tags.. I looked at every tag image I have from 03C to 05E (about 60 tags) and these tags are the only two that look this way. Both of these tags are also out of line with normal 67 Body and Trim tag combinations, by a week. The body numbers are from a week later than the VINs would indicate. Whether these two tags were made on an offline machine in Norwood, or they are fakes has yet to be determined.
[ 11-18-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]
[ 11-18-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]
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Thanks Mark. I agree that something is definitely different with the two tags when compared to others. I didn't buy the car, so now I am just trying to see what info I can dig up on what the deal is with the tags. The really strange thing is that both tags have very similar "mistakes" yet are months apart??? I spoke to a previous owner of the ebay cars and he told me that he bought the car in '89 with that tag in place and he knew of the car since it was new. The car I found was restored sometime in the mid '80's and left to deteriorate. While the motor was not original, many of the other components were, so I really don't know what to make of the tag. I compared this tag to those on trimtags.com and they do not appear to be the same blank. I guess we'll have to keep looking for other examples to help solve this mystery.
Mark,
You should contact Al Grenning of Pennsylvania. Al is the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) guru for engine stamps, trim tags and Vin tags. He has thousands cataloged for Corvettes and you would be amazed what he has found.
Under 10X magnification, Corvette trim tags have a distict signature that is shown that is caused by the fact that the same machine, over and over, made trim tags. As good as the repo Corvette tags WERE, they are now SO easy to detect.
Al makes a prepared presentation (it is totally fascinating) about these findings and how it relates to orgininality. I believe you may find the same thing with Camaro trim tags. Talk with Al and maybe his techniques and observations may be able to answer your questions.
He has totally blown away the trim tags reproduction for Corvette use. The trim tag guy in Illinois is probably not very happy!
Mike
You should contact Al Grenning of Pennsylvania. Al is the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) guru for engine stamps, trim tags and Vin tags. He has thousands cataloged for Corvettes and you would be amazed what he has found.
Under 10X magnification, Corvette trim tags have a distict signature that is shown that is caused by the fact that the same machine, over and over, made trim tags. As good as the repo Corvette tags WERE, they are now SO easy to detect.
Al makes a prepared presentation (it is totally fascinating) about these findings and how it relates to orgininality. I believe you may find the same thing with Camaro trim tags. Talk with Al and maybe his techniques and observations may be able to answer your questions.
He has totally blown away the trim tags reproduction for Corvette use. The trim tag guy in Illinois is probably not very happy!
Mike
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Thanks for the suggestion Mike. I actually am an NCRS member and used to judge nationally in the '70-'72 class. I had Al check out a factory grind out of a '67 Z motor a few years ago, but never thought to run the trim tag by him. I think I'll do that.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Corvette tags are a bit different animals, limited production (relatively), one assembly plant, one Addressograph machine used for trim tags, etc. Camaros, and Chevrolets, and Impalas at LA, were a much higher volume production car, using different addressographs at different plants. Makes it much harder to compare the tags. Of course having roughly 7000 tag images like Al Grennings does would help greatly in picking out the phoneys.
Mark,
There was actually 2 body plants for Corvette. The St. Louis assembly plant and A.O. Smith plant in Ionia Michigan manufacturing Corvette bodies and shipping the finished bodies to St. Louis for assembly. The trim tags were installed each respective body shop, not the assembly line. The trim tag stamps appear to be consistant with each having their own unique signature. I would expect that you would find the same with Camaro. Yes, I know that there were two Camaro plants and each had numerous assembly lines within each plant assembling Camaro's however after inspection of enough tags there will be specific points of identification for each lines trim tag machine stamping machine within each plant. That assumes that the trim tag was installed on the production line and not the body shop as with Corvette. I'll bet that Camaro trim tags were also installed in the body shop. Let's face it, there was probably only one addessograph machine for each body shop line with a backup for use when needed. I doubt they broke that often. Also consider the fact that the trim tags were probably applied in the body shop. I do not believe that there was a assembly line specific body shop for each assembly line within an assembly plant. I'd guess that there was no more than one/two "body shops" assembling body shells for all production lines at Van Nuys and Norwood. These lines would feed bodies to all the individual assembly lines within the assembly plant. It MAY not be as difficult as you think to find consistancy within both of the assembly plants.
Something to consider?
Mike
There was actually 2 body plants for Corvette. The St. Louis assembly plant and A.O. Smith plant in Ionia Michigan manufacturing Corvette bodies and shipping the finished bodies to St. Louis for assembly. The trim tags were installed each respective body shop, not the assembly line. The trim tag stamps appear to be consistant with each having their own unique signature. I would expect that you would find the same with Camaro. Yes, I know that there were two Camaro plants and each had numerous assembly lines within each plant assembling Camaro's however after inspection of enough tags there will be specific points of identification for each lines trim tag machine stamping machine within each plant. That assumes that the trim tag was installed on the production line and not the body shop as with Corvette. I'll bet that Camaro trim tags were also installed in the body shop. Let's face it, there was probably only one addessograph machine for each body shop line with a backup for use when needed. I doubt they broke that often. Also consider the fact that the trim tags were probably applied in the body shop. I do not believe that there was a assembly line specific body shop for each assembly line within an assembly plant. I'd guess that there was no more than one/two "body shops" assembling body shells for all production lines at Van Nuys and Norwood. These lines would feed bodies to all the individual assembly lines within the assembly plant. It MAY not be as difficult as you think to find consistancy within both of the assembly plants.
Something to consider?
Mike
If the overspray is also on the firewall, I would say thats fine, but if only the tag has overspray on it, somthing is wrong. The tag was literally the first thing attached to the basic body shell in the Fisher plant. There will be no paint or primer behind the tag. The firewall was painted black prior to body color being applied. Once the car was painted, if there was a huge amount of body color over spray then either Fisher, or GM should have touched up the firewall. If your only talking white on the top faces of the letters, but not on the face of the tag that would probably be left that way. If the tag has a lot of overspray but the firewall dosen't then chances are the tag was removed and the firewall repainted by some previous owner.
As far as comparing tags, the NCRS as an established organisation that people bring their cars to for inspection, has the opportunity to photograph the tags themselves, such that all the images are the same. There is no equivalent organization for Camaros. I've got literally a 1000 67-69 tags, but they have been harvested from Ebay, websites, local car shows, people send them to me, etc. Some I take myself when I get the chance.
As such the images vary greatly in alignments, quality, and angles. I can make some general comparisions and can identify alignment issues but can't go down to the macroscopic levels that the NCRS guys do. That's why I would be loath to call a specific tag a fake, unless it is so bad that it should be obvious to almost anyone if they gave it any thought. I've also not been doing it for years and years. Maybe someday I'll have a much bigger library.
As far as comparing tags, the NCRS as an established organisation that people bring their cars to for inspection, has the opportunity to photograph the tags themselves, such that all the images are the same. There is no equivalent organization for Camaros. I've got literally a 1000 67-69 tags, but they have been harvested from Ebay, websites, local car shows, people send them to me, etc. Some I take myself when I get the chance.
As such the images vary greatly in alignments, quality, and angles. I can make some general comparisions and can identify alignment issues but can't go down to the macroscopic levels that the NCRS guys do. That's why I would be loath to call a specific tag a fake, unless it is so bad that it should be obvious to almost anyone if they gave it any thought. I've also not been doing it for years and years. Maybe someday I'll have a much bigger library.
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Thanks for all of the comments guys. I have studied these tags for hours and have to conclude that they were both done on the same machine given their identical misalingments. I know PM's car is real, but have no docs on the other car. So I had the owner look for traces of the original stripes on the cowl and trunk lips and they are definitely there 
Now why were these two tags different??? I don't know, but expect there must be other examples out there. Conicidentally, they are both red '67 Z's with black vinyl tops - one is an RS
![Image]()
Now why were these two tags different??? I don't know, but expect there must be other examples out there. Conicidentally, they are both red '67 Z's with black vinyl tops - one is an RS
How about a "National Camaro Restorers Society" or something similiar? Yes, I know there are trademark issues with the Corvette guys. This is just using an example to illustrate a point. Are there enough people "really" interested in the "as they left the assembly plant" restoration and preservation left out there upon which to build an organization?
I know there is the CRG and other Camaro clubs with each catering to different wants and needs. Maybe there is room for more?
The Camaro hobby appears to be more and more "let's fix it up, modify the car and have fun". This is the way the car hobby is moving in general. It is happening in Corvette also. In my view, it has certainly got to the point that the very rare, correct, "topflight" if you will, original Camaro's are rarely at shows anymore. Where did they all go? They are certainly out there however the owners do no show/display their cars anymore so that we can all learn from their efforts in restoration and preservation. There are a lot of over-restored cars out there because most people do not know/understand how poorly made these GM cars really were. A low mile original car will blow you away and how homely it looks compared to today's base coat/clear coat restorations. Maybe there would be interest in a organization that could produce the type information the Corvette community enjoys. Remember, most of the information did not come from GM but rather from estute enthusiasts such as ourselves. It also took 25 years for the NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) to get to the point they are at and the information they enjoy. The Camaro learning curve could ramp quickly as there is much information out there if individuals are willing to share their knowledge. This could also shine light on the conterfeiting occuring in the hobby and a least let others be more aware and make a better/more informed decision as it relates to Camaro purchases.
What do you think????? I'm in!!!!
Mike Strinich
Nashville, Tn.
I know there is the CRG and other Camaro clubs with each catering to different wants and needs. Maybe there is room for more?
The Camaro hobby appears to be more and more "let's fix it up, modify the car and have fun". This is the way the car hobby is moving in general. It is happening in Corvette also. In my view, it has certainly got to the point that the very rare, correct, "topflight" if you will, original Camaro's are rarely at shows anymore. Where did they all go? They are certainly out there however the owners do no show/display their cars anymore so that we can all learn from their efforts in restoration and preservation. There are a lot of over-restored cars out there because most people do not know/understand how poorly made these GM cars really were. A low mile original car will blow you away and how homely it looks compared to today's base coat/clear coat restorations. Maybe there would be interest in a organization that could produce the type information the Corvette community enjoys. Remember, most of the information did not come from GM but rather from estute enthusiasts such as ourselves. It also took 25 years for the NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) to get to the point they are at and the information they enjoy. The Camaro learning curve could ramp quickly as there is much information out there if individuals are willing to share their knowledge. This could also shine light on the conterfeiting occuring in the hobby and a least let others be more aware and make a better/more informed decision as it relates to Camaro purchases.
What do you think????? I'm in!!!!
Mike Strinich
Nashville, Tn.
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I found another coincidence with these two Red/Black '67 Z-28's. Both have one of their major components that is mis-stamped at the factoy. PM's car had a motor VIN derivitive that was one off of the car's VIN and the other car has a Tranny VIN derivitive that is one off the car's VIN. Really wierd
Which one is the RS and why is the 3L trim code missing? Did ordering RPO-Z28 automatically mean the code was deleted even if RPO-Z22 was ordered?Originally posted by Zedder:
Conicidentally, they are both red '67 Z's with black vinyl tops - one is an RS![Image]()
I'm confused, but something doesn't sound right.
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