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cv2065

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Well, I had to drop my '67 off to the local restoration shop, as I was having difficulties diagnosing my electrical issues. This was basically my first go around with a restoration place. Sure, I've dealt with a variety of mechanics and general maintenance shops in my time, but not so much restoration. I learned a couple of things:

1. Always set a time limit on the job. I was a bit too casual in this regard, and what should have been one week, turned into two and a half weeks, and I still didn't get everything that I wanted done.

2. Always set a price limit. I did this, but things can still get out of control, as it seems everything in a restoration shop is sort of 'ala carte', and there really is never one clear answer on how long something will take, so you have to keep close watch.

3. Force the 'multi-tasking piece', in order to speed up the time on the car. I had them looking at the electrical piece, and continued to inquire as to why they hadn't sent the trunk lid/spoiler in for paint. For whatever reason, they chose to wait until the electrical issues were resolved, then would move to the trunk lid. This is just seems to be an unnecessary delay.

4. Ensure that the shop is taking pictures of everything that they do to document the repair. This shop did this and I thought it was a great practice.

5. Always tell them that you want ALL of the parts that they take off. I noticed that they do ask, and surely the parts, even if in need of rebuild, are worth something that can offset the price of repair.

6. Have the shop document every hour and how that hour was spent during repair. It seems like mine has gone on forever, for simple things, and that everyday the car is there, the dollar signs keep tripping the meter. I'm sure that I will get a detailed account, but its worth mentioning.

I'm sure that there are a million other things to watch out for, so thought I'd maybe start the ball rolling in a thread in the event that someone new like myself was getting ready for a trip to their local restoration shop. I also know that the idea is to do it yourself on this board, but sometimes, a trip to the shop is necessary.:thumbsup:
 
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#3 ·
Chad I agree with most of what you have posted but wanted to comment...

Be careful, most restoration/repair work there is no "book" setting repair time like there is for a modern car. A shop may be able to whip out the job on a Early GTO because of experience but may have never worked on a Camaro and that can cost you if you are after factory correct restoration work.

Also asking the shop to multi task on several jobs at a time can cost you, as can asking for a time accounting of what was done during each hour the mechanic was working on the car. Think about it, 2 or more workers having to wait because the other is in the way and each hour turning into 50 minutes work and 10 minutes documenting the work done. Another issue is if the shop feels you are micro managing them the inclination is for them to slow down. As for photographing the work done, well I have done this to document what I was doing and it can double the time it takes to do the job depending on what's being done.

Always get a quote and an estimated completion date and share your budget concerns with the shop and set a limit. If you can, ask for a flat fee per job. If the owner agrees he will be watching his employees productivity a lot tighter! Also talk to the shop owner, if you are not on a deadline and don't put him on one you'll probably save money and get a better job done as they pay their overhead with other work on daily driver repairs.

There is a science to farming out classic car projects and if you don't have a good understanding how it works and don't know the shop you are using it can be real frustrating.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Thanks Dennis. All great points. I tried setting a specific dollar amount per job initially, but they veered away from that when it came to the electrical diagnosis. I get that, as the issue can be very elusive, as I found out, but certainly worth a try.

One other thing I forgot to mention was in regard to general mechanical issues. My suggestion would be to avoid getting this type of work (seal replacement, etc.) done and take to another shop that is specific to car repair. Its easy to just throw a few simple things in extra to the body work, simply because they already have the vehicle, and out of convenience, but it will certainly cost you a LOT more!
 
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#5 ·
I use this procedure.

Prepare a detailed line item list of the work to be done.

Go over the list with the shop and agree on a cost for each item.

If the shop won't agree to this program the walk.

The wild card is troubleshooting. The only way to handle it is to authorize X amount of time. If they can't resolve the issue in the allotted time then they give you a call and you go to the shop to discuss what they have done and what they plan to do next. At that point you authorize another X number of hours. But only authorize the added time if you believe based on your meeting that they have the knowledge and expertise to efficiently do the job.

If not then cross that item off the list and have another shop complete that task.

Accounting and pictures.

This can be tuff. Almost every shop I've seen works this way. At the end of the day or sometimes even at weeks end the mechanics sit down and write down what they worked on and how much time was spent. This is not an exact science and if they have worked on more then one car then the time may not be allocated correctly.

Also if a guys working on your project and another customer comes in he may bs with the guy for a hour on your dime. Bottom line is the mechanics are going to charge somebody for the time they spend in the shop.
 
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#6 ·
Vega$69 said:
I use this procedure.

Prepare a detailed line item list of the work to be done.

Go over the list with the shop and agree on a cost for each item.

If the shop won't agree to this program the walk.

The wild card is troubleshooting. The only way to handle it is to authorize X amount of time. If they can't resolve the issue in the allotted time then they give you a call and you go to the shop to discuss what they have done and what they plan to do next. At that point you authorize another X number of hours. But only authorize the added time if you believe based on your meeting that they have the knowledge and expertise to efficiently do the job.

If not then cross that item off the list and have another shop complete that task.

Accounting and pictures.

This can be tuff. Almost every shop I've seen works this way. At the end of the day or sometimes even at weeks end the mechanics sit down and write down what they worked on and how much time was spent. This is not an exact science and if they have worked on more then one car then the time may not be allocated correctly.

Also if a guys working on your project and another customer comes in he may bs with the guy for a hour on your dime. Bottom line is the mechanics are going to charge somebody for the time they spend in the shop.
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Agree with this 1000%.

If I would have done this I wouldn't be out the 18k I paid a shop to get my body "ready for paint" only to find the pop riveted, bondoed mess he left me. Or the roof panel held on with 6 tack welds.

I know it's hard on a restoration, but you need to lay it out like:

Remove quarter panels and tail panel
Replace inner and outer wheel well
Replace quarter panel
Align rear panels to factory specs
Seam seal all overlaps to factory specs
etc, etc.

Estimated at xxx hours at $xxx/hr. Anything more than 10% above budgeted hours requires written approval.

I learned the hard way. If they won't do this, run.
 
#9 ·
Being a restoration shop, let me tell you, people that micro manage and attempt to set prices at stuff is some of the most annoying practices that customers develop. It is totally fine to give me a budget. But what most people don't realize is that restoring things is not cookie cutter insurance work. If i look at something and say it is going to take 25 hrs to do, its probably realistically going to take 50. Putting a deadline on a project is most definitely going to make the price per hr go up, as more employees are going to be taken off of other jobs in order to make up the difference in hours of previously stated situations. If time is a problem, you should have started the project earlier, and when you rush people like us, you tend to not get 100% effort. Restoring cars requires patience from builder and customer alike. I always tell people if you want a 7 i can bang that out in your time frame. If you want a show car, its going to get done, when it gets done.
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
FTF Automotive said:
If i look at something and say it is going to take 25 hrs to do, its probably realistically going to take 50.
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With all due respect, if someone tells me that a job will take 25 hours, and it ends up taking 50, then as with any profession, I would be questioning the accuracy/professionalism of the shop and the person who gave me the quote. At $85-$100 per hour, that's quite a large birth of error at the customers expense. Not asking for perfection, as there is no such thing, but it has to be in the ballpark of expectation.

I do plenty of takeoffs and specifications for customers in a different industry, and if I were off by 100% each time, with respect to job costing, I would not be employed.
 
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#11 ·
cv2065 said:
With all due respect, if someone tells me that a job will take 25 hours, and it ends up taking 50, then as with any profession, I would be questioning the accuracy/professionalism of the shop and the person who gave me the quote. At $85-$100 per hour, that's quite a large birth of error at the customers expense. Not asking for perfection, as there is no such thing, but it has to be in the ballpark of expectation.

I do plenty of takeoffs and specifications for customers in a different industry, and if I were off by 100% each time, with respect to job costing, I would not be employed.
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I rarely charge people for excess time whenever something becomes more in depth that what it should have been. The extra time is usually to make something right. I don't let things leave with poor work or improper parts behind around or near it out of respect for safety and my shops name. In a car its hard to say what you will find behind someone else's ****ty work. That is why i made the statement about cookie cutter stuff like insurance work. That is why there is an industry standard for that stuff, and not for restoration work. I charge people 125 an hr, and they expect perfection. I also dont bill people for a lot of the things that i should because i love what i do, and while i am expensive i don't do it for the money. I charge that much to keep people who shouldn't be restoring cars out of my shop. Some explanation of the extra time for example, i am doing a 1930 model a for a customer, and the roof has to be fabricated from scratch. The existing panels to attach to, appeared to in workable shape but upon closer inspection, they are completely different from one side to another. The arc of the roof above the windows is completely different, someone chopped the top prior to me receiving the vehicle and the body is at different heights at 8 different points. So these are some examples of things where extra time comes into play. I am not charging him extra money for this, its taking me an extra 6 weeks to correct. He was given two options, wait til i can get it done or the price went up 15,000, its that bad He chose to wait obviously. If you are not concerned with perfection, like i am, then more power to you. As we in this industry say, and most other industries, 99% of people would not know the difference. I dont have deadlines from any of my customers because my work speaks for itself, and some have been waiting in excess of 2 years to get their car here. All i was saying is i would be careful what limitations you try to put on a shop, because most will tell you to leave. I don't need the experience or the money. When i hear restoration, i think taking the car completely apart, not slapping a coat of paint on the replaced quarter, and blending a door and trunk. That's insurance type stuff. Not trying to come off as rude, i am just passionate about what i do and for some reason this post struck a nerve.
 
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#13 ·
FTF Automotive said:
I charge people 125 an hr, and they expect perfection. I also dont bill people for a lot of the things that i should because i love what i do, and while i am expensive i don't do it for the money. I charge that much to keep people who shouldn't be restoring cars out of my shop. Some explanation of the extra time for example, i am doing a 1930 model a for a customer, and the roof has to be fabricated from scratch. So these are some examples of things where extra time comes into play.
If you are not concerned with perfection, like i am, then more power to you. As we in this industry say, and most other industries, 99% of people would not know the difference. I dont have deadlines from any of my customers because my work speaks for itself, and some have been waiting in excess of 2 years to get their car here. All i was saying is i would be careful what limitations you try to put on a shop, because most will tell you to leave. I don't need the experience or the money. When i hear restoration, i think taking the car completely apart, not slapping a coat of paint on the replaced quarter, and blending a door and trunk. That's insurance type stuff. Not trying to come off as rude, i am just passionate about what i do and for some reason this post struck a nerve.
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With all due respect about 1/2 of what you're saying here is BOGUS

120 hours to replace the top on a model A? gimmeabreak

"I charge that much to keep people who shouldn't be restoring cars out of my shop" So if your'e not rich stay out of my shop?

"Not trying to come off as rude" Either am I.

If you are the Professional/Experienced/Perfectionist you say you are then you should have enough experience and knowledge to hit an estimate within 10%

If not then you're just like 99% of all the shops out there that lowball to get the job then make excuses to jack them up for more money after they are already in too deep to make a change.:noway:
 
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#14 ·
well... seeing as you know so much. Model a's didn't come with a roof from the factory. They had a soft top over wooden railing due to the war and metal demands. and i never said 120 hrs, plus you have no idea what i am doing to this car, its not just a roof skin. Roof rails, new bracing (which are not sold anywhere) new window panels, roof front cover panels, etc......i was using it as an example. When i go to quote a job at someone elses location, i dont bring a tape measure, level, square ie my shop. if you're not rich, lol. Restorations are not a poor mans game. Maaco is for people that are worried about spending money. If you are a penny pinching *** that is going to come in the shop and tell me what my labor times should be, and estimate the amount of hours it takes to do something before i even put my hands on it you are an absolute idiot. Anyone that has ever built something custom knows that. Frankly, people like that need to step back and realize that they brought it to me because they couldn't do it. I can do things at 28 that most body men cant do til they are 50 if they even can. I have built cars with other shops that are in movies, painted race cars that are on tv right now. You obviously just skimmed my post and didn't actually read. I said i actually don't charge people if they allot me the time to fix it, if i misquoted something due to me not checking the car top to bottom, because i dont need the money. I have a 2 year waiting list. I dont need to lowball or jack prices on people. You sound sour on shops. I dont need to explain myself, i make a better living than most doing what people on here ask questions about and pay others to do for them. Btw where is your shop located?
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
FTF Automotive said:
I rarely charge people for excess time whenever something becomes more in depth that what it should have been. The extra time is usually to make something right. I don't let things leave with poor work or improper parts behind around or near it out of respect for safety and my shops name. In a car its hard to say what you will find behind someone else's ****ty work.
Click to expand...
And I get this. From what I understand, the person who owned the car before I did was very creative in terms of the electrical system, and did quite a few negatively unique things that turned into a nest of wires for this shop to figure out. I believe that just about every ground was pulled from the car for whatever reason.

I think the key here is that the shop has the right person on the job, that can diagnose quickly and implement a solid solution. I'm not sure that I had that this go around, which can lead to a large waste of money, but is really difficult to dispute if you don't know exactly what you are looking at.
 
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#16 ·
I have problems like this happen, i eat cost on stuff all the time, because employees of mine in the past were either slow, or incompetent. In which case they found the door very fast. Most shops are shady, i will concede that. In my 8 years of my doors being open on my own, i have never had a customer ever question my pricing, or time spent. Unlike most shops, i openly invite my customers to visit as often as they wish to check up on progress, and for me to explain situations to them. I get heated easily on this subject because i am thrown into a lump with shops that will slap mud over rust, or my favorite, weld galvanized street signs into quarter panels. (removed that once from a 67 mustang fastback quarter, said "stop" in the trunk). Most shops give what i am trying to do a bad name, and it is tremendously frustrating. Also, most claim to be fabricators, or restoration shops, but they are nothing but glorified parts hangers, and it makes my life hell when quoting times and prices to people about what i do.
 
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#17 ·
FTF Automotive said:
I can do things at 28 that most body men cant do til they are 50 if they even can. Ahhh to be so young and so smart. The older you get the more you will realize you weren't near as smart as you though you were. LOL

I have a 2 year waiting list. Yes if it take 2 years to build a car that adds up

You sound sour on shops. Not at all. I deal with lots of shops. I just don't deal with shops that can't give me a reasonable estimate of how much something is going to cost and how long something is going to take

Btw where is your shop located? Henderson Nevada. In my garage. I build my own cars except body and paint. And I hire out upholstery. I also own and run my own Construction business which actually has a lot in common with building cars.
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I wish I knew as much now as I though I did at 28

Seeya
 
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#18 ·
FTF Automotive said:
I have problems like this happen, i eat cost on stuff all the time, because employees of mine in the past were either slow, or incompetent. In which case they found the door very fast. Most shops are shady, i will concede that. In my 8 years of my doors being open on my own, i have never had a customer ever question my pricing, or time spent. Unlike most shops, i openly invite my customers to visit as often as they wish to check up on progress, and for me to explain situations to them. I get heated easily on this subject because i am thrown into a lump with shops that will slap mud over rust, or my favorite, weld galvanized street signs into quarter panels. (removed that once from a 67 mustang fastback quarter, said "stop" in the trunk). Most shops give what i am trying to do a bad name, and it is tremendously frustrating. Also, most claim to be fabricators, or restoration shops, but they are nothing but glorified parts hangers, and it makes my life hell when quoting times and prices to people about what i do.
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Well my friend my hat is off to you and I see where you are coming from.

My beef is not what you charge per hour or how long it takes but a shops inability to even come close to estimating.

A guy will go on and on about all the s**t he has done and how good he is and all the years of experience however he has not learned enough from all that experience to give a guy a reasonable and accurate cost and time estimate?

There are lots of guys out there that are building their Dream Cars. They have worked hard, made sacrifices in there lives and saved for years. They then bring it to a "professional" and cut a deal based on the "professional's" estimate. Now they know it will probably end up a little more when it's done and expect perhaps a 10%-15% bump. And they know it's probably going to take a little longer, maybe 6 weeks instead of the promised 4 and they are good with that.

Then they get blindsided. The shop calls and says they ran into extra this and that BS and a load of excuses as to why it's taking so long.

This is just plain wrong in my book.

Would you like your dad or maybe your kid treated this way?

Think about it.

And no hard feelings here:beers:
 
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#19 ·
I understand what you are saying. But what you have to understand is that no car is the same. Try restoring 12 1966 mustangs, one from every month of production for the year. They get wider and wider towards the end of the year. Nothing lines up towards the end of the model year. They will literally be a different shape entirely. Like i said earlier, i don't price bump anyone. I quote a price, i eat it. The only time i charge more is when someone asks for something else, and if that involves modifying something that i have already done then they get a higher price, and that is different. I aim to put those kind of shops out of business. Lying is no way to be making your money. i have had my own run in with another shop that is a member of this site. They are only 15 miles away from me, and it took them 4 months to warranty out something they sold me for a 1967 pro touring camaro i am building. Then they charged me to warranty the product that was damaged when i got it. So i understand how that stuff goes.
 
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Discussion starter · #20 ·
I also get what John is saying as well. At one point, I had a shop charge me 13 hours worth of labor to pull the front end suspension, with new springs, press new bushings in CAs, new ball joints/links, blast, paint and then reinstall.

I thought this time was excessive, and the only response that I got was that there must have been some additional 'diagnostics' involved.
 
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cv2065
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