502 shortblock, ......then what???

This is a question that I have been wondering about a lot. I am wanting to put in a ZZ502 in my 1969 Camaro. Its going in there, just depends on when I can get one. I am running a Arizona Speed Marine fuel Injection setup on it, and heres my question.

You can gasket match an engine, and create more horsepower. Not a lot, but more. You can then port and polish the heads to create more horsepower. Both of these mods allow for more air, and therefore increase H.P. Ok, now...you can buy a pair of Dart, Brodix, etc heads that flow more, and therefore, allow more air to flow, therefore increasing horsepower.

Ok, so this engine is going to be driven on the street, as well as raced. Probably about 40% street/60% race. I have 3:73 gears with a small block, and Im not changing the gears until I have the BB in so that I can see how the car reacts with the big block. So, what do I do. Do I build a 502 with Dart heads that have been gasket matched and flow an extensive amount of air, therefore will ((rev up quicker ???)) and keep the 3:73 for upper RPM's. (Since the larger airflow will take longer to start flowing, higher RPM's will aid in the air flow. ((Help me if this is not correct))

Or do I leave the 502 stock, maybe a cam change, and let it ride. I mean, small blocks rev to 6000-8000 for the power peak. I know that you'll have a nice explosion if you take most BB to that level. So why would you want the better airflow to have to rev higher, to threaten you engine.

I hope that I have made this simple, I have probably just made it worse, but I would appreciate any help on building this engine of mind. And w/me being 21, and to say the least, getting started out, I dont want to have to build the engine twice. 1st time to make a mistake w/mis-matched parts, (ex. 1050 dominator on a stock 350, then having to buy a carb that would not bog the engine. Now I am experienced in the engine building area, but by this example you should know the mistake that I am trying to avoid) and building a 2nd time to fix what I messed up the first time.

Please inform me of your ideas and I will be checking this everyday to answer questions if needed.

Thanks to all in advance.

Robby

Also, just out of curosity, anyone done a plain swap in there camaro w/a 502, and what did it run???

Well the runner size and a lot of other things will determine what the flow at various RPMs will be. More flow at lower RPMs can also lead to poor throttle response. So you will need to match the characteristics of the heads with the rest of the motor and it's intended RPM band.

I suggest you spend considerable time plotting out the rest of the drivetrain too. It won't do you any good to have a 550-hp engine if you can't hook up, or worse--break parts.

One thing, for sure, once you get it dialed in it's going to be fast! Probably 11's.....if you can hook-up.

Sounds like it's going to be an awesome car doode

Keep us informed of your progress.

What are you ET goals? Class racing it or just plan to bracket race it? Sounds like you are just starting out so may be some advice ..

The ZZ 502 seems to be a great combo as is. I dont have one myself but the numbers seem fine. Im not a big fan of fuel injection on a bracket car. Yes it works great but there is not a big dollar per HP return on it, same with high dollar ingintion. There is maybe 5 HP differenace between a HEI and a hood full of MSD stuff.

Im just saying spend the money were it makes a differance.

My self, Stock ZZ 502 maybe with a cam change . 750 CFM carb with 1 7/8 primary headers. Your goal is to add things to compliment your engine. You are not trying to FORCE it to be something its not with giant primary diameter headers and massive carb ( you have that correct all ready)Converter choice depends on the final cam choice.

The rest of the time and money I would put into the chassis. 12 bolt or 9 inch ford ( my favorite), and either mono leafs with Cal Tracs or monos with housing floaters and 32 inch ladder bars. Competion Engineering adjustable shocks front and rear( cheap and effective) Tire choice? Slicks on the track and BF drag radial on the street. That or ETs / Hoosires for a street /strip set up.

3.73 gears are not to bad for a big block but what about the rest. I see HUNDREDS of cars were the owner spends $$$$$$$$$$$$ on the engine and take it to the track with a peg leg rear with 3.08 and a set of slapper bars and wonders why it turns 14s

Its a balacing act, you should spend just as much time and money on the rear and tranny as you sink into the engine. I do not beleive in de tunning an engine to correct a traction problem.

Or put it this way. How many people do you know that will only race you from a 30 MPH roll?? These are the ones that dont know how to build a car.

[This message has been edited by roger69 (edited 02-22-2002).]

Hows this for a 502 build up ??


630 @ 5,600 RPM

Torque:

605 @ 4,400 RPM

Max. Rec. RPM:

6,000 RPM

Comp. Ratio:

10.2:1

Camshaft:

Crane P/N 168741, Hyd. Roller, Lift (.610" I, .632" E), Duration @ .050" (236° I, 244° E)

Timing Chain:

GM P/N 12371053, HD Roller Design

Lifters:

Crane P/N 16535-16, Long Travel, Designed For High Lift Camshafts

Cylinder Heads:

Edelbrock Victor JR. P/N 6040, CNC, Rectangular Port, 112 cc Combustion Chambers

Intake Valves:

2.25" Stainless Steel, 11/32 Stem

Exhaust Valves:

1.90" Stainless Steel, 11/32"

Valve Springs:

Crane P/N 99895-16 Valve Springs, Dual Valve Springs

Rocker Arms:

Crower P/N 73605, Stainless Steel 1.7 Ratio

Intake Manifold:

Edelbrock P/N 7562, Air Gap

Carburetor:

Speed Demon P/N 1563010, 850 CFM, Mechanical Secondaries, Fuel Line Kit P/N 140006

Distributor:

MSD P/N 85551 Billet, MSD 8252 Coil, Digital-6 Plus Ignition Control Box.

Damper:

Fluidampr, 8" External Balance


Fasteners:

ARP Head Bolts, Rocker Studs, and Intake Bolts.





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[This message has been edited by roger69 (edited 02-22-2002).]

IMHO, do a search over at Big Brother for racer1320's 468 combination and just expand it ratio-wise so that it fits the 502!

OR leave as is AND still have one bad 502!

I think it is posted over here but it would take a while to find.

Ed has really done his homework ta get his big Chevelle down the track in the 10's! pdq67

I was just over at Big Brothewr and found Ed's combination.

Racer1320's 454 combo:

-454+.060 = 467 -TRW # 2399 pistons with Speed Pro file fit rings, -10.0 - 10.7 CR depending on deck height, final combustion chamber volume and head gasket used.
-Clevite bearings - mains, rod and cam
-Fel-Pro gaskets.
-GM 3/8" rods with ARP bolts and GM crank(cast is fine at this level) with ARP main studs and GM windage tray.
-Moroso 6-Quart kicked-out pan # 20401 with pickup # 24440.
-Melling oil pump.
-Manley or DynaGear double roller timing chain.
-#215 closed chamber oval port heads '67 - '68 with 2.19 / 1.88 valves, gasket matched and bowls blended.
-Performer RPM Q-Jet Manifold with GM lifter valley splash shield.
-Q-Jet carb with 75 main jet, 45B primary rod, AX secondary rods and B hanger.
-1/2" phenolic 4-hole spacer and a GM carb heat shield.
-Ultradyne 288 / 296 hydraulic cam with matching springs - double w/damper. Cam specs are 231I / 239E duration @ .050 with .550/.575 lift ground on a 110LSA. Install on a 108 intake centerline.
-Rockers - either crane steel long slots or a roller. Isky are the best aluminum, Crower the best Stainless steel. Neither are needed at the power level.
-3/8" one piece pushrods Crane or Comp.
-MSD ignition- 6AL box, coil and distributer(optional-allows easy curve adjustment).
-Headers - 1 3/4" PRIMARY TUBE WITH 3" collectors. Remove collector(cut off) and install(weld) Flowmaster Scavenger Collectors # C-134214300, -3" headpipes with 3" crossover and 2 1/2" tailpipes. All bends to be mandrel. Use Flowmaster Big Block mufflers 3" in and out, offset - offset (quietest performance muffler) or DynoMax Oval RaceMagnum.
-Mallory Comp 140 fuel pump, regulator and filter plumbed to stock 3/8" fuel line.
-Mobil 1 10W-30 oil, Ford type F trans fluid and Mobil 1 gear lube.
-indexed spark plugs.

With a turbo 400, ATI 10" converter, 3.73 gears and either slicks or DOT slicks this combo will run 11.60's to 11.90's depending on weather, tuning and driver. My best was 11.49 @ 115 in mine shaft air weighing 4000+ lbs. on pump gas.
I must tell you though that with a stick you'll never hook up on the street or track. This will get fustrating real quick especially when cars having much less power are running quicker than you.
This combo is fully streetable and was regularly driven to the track some 140 miles away and 2+ hours(one way) on a weekly basis. It was driven anywhere, never over heated and got 12-13 MPG on the highway with a lite foot.
Now find a competent machine shop / engine builder that can do precision machine work and assembly in your area.
I strongly suggest you upgrade to aftermarket axles, especially with a stick and I recommend Moser. Be forwarned you will break either the trans, rear, axles or driveshaft if your intent is to see regular 1320 action. It's for this reason I suggest you rethink using a turbo 400.
If you must have a stick do it right the first time and get a Jerico @ $3,000+.
Set the total timing to 36 degrees and shift at 5800 for best ET.
For my current combo just substitute a Comp cams street roller custom ground 238I / 244E duration @ .050 with the appropriate springs, titanium retainers, roller lifters(Crower), roller rockers(Crane Gold), Performer RPM Air-Gap(not worth any ET), Holley 950 or 1000HP, 4.10 gear, lose the tailpipes and raise the shift point 200 RPM to 6000 and you'll run high 10's. Just don't forget things like a roll bar, SFI balancer, SFI bell housing shield, non-clip axles, and a real good suspension / tire package.

pdq67