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mshaw67

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hi, I'm rebuilding my six cylinder. There's some very nice but expensive forged aluminum Ross pistons I could buy, get a bit more compression (9.5:1 vs. 9.25:1) and performance.

The mechanic says for street driving, not worth it, stick with the cast iron. The Al pistons are 0.040" over, if I go cast, I'm probably need at most 0.020" over bore.

Thought I'd ask the broad forum here. Are there big differences in operating the engine? I read in some of the notes where they talked about warmup being more important and such. Will they be quirky? Will they be shorter life?

Thanks,
Mark
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

If all you're doing is regular street driving, the cast aluminum (they're not cast iron) are perfectly fine.
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Cast.

I'm not even convinced a 350-400hp turbo 250 needs forged. Spend the money elsewhere. Like lumps.
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

A cast piston is just as strong as a forged piston. The only difference in the two; and why racers prefer forged pistons over the cheaper cast is in how they ultimately fail.

A cast piston disintegrates like an antique China plate dropped by a butter fingered husband helping with the cleaning up after Thanksgiving. It shatters into a bunch of pieces.

Once the piston is gone; having broken apart and fallen into the bottom of the oil pan, it leaves a forged steel connecting rod and a tool steel piston wrist pin flailing around in the cylinder bore. The piston breaking doesn't do anything harmful other than starting an oil fire, but that rod and wrist pin will break up the block trying to get out.

Here is what was left of a cast piston in a SBC after a little too much Nitrous resulted in detonation:

Image


Image


A remains of a cast piston in it's final resting place:

Image


This is a forged piston after a dropped valve:

Image


Big Dave
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

A little LB weld and a dremmel tool should have that 350 back up and running in about 6 hours (that's how long it takes the epoxy to set properly).

In all seriousness: I've had a cast piston blow a hole through the center of it and not come apart like that. The darn truck still ran too! Heck of a smoke screen, though, so I wasn't getting pulled over any time soon. Drove the truck 60 miles back home like that. Replaced the piston, got a head job and off I went.

Iron Dukes could take some abuse!
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

What's the price difference?
Pretty significant, actually. I just looked into it and figured it wasn't worth changing my stock pistons because it was so much.

$62 vs $400 for a set on Flea-Bay right now just looking around.

For the extra $338 he could be halfway to a lump port install/head job with oversized valves.
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Ok then I guess I was seeing somebody was offering the Ross discounted. That they were .040 over lead me to think so.

And if he had forged he could hit it with Nitrous.:D
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Hey all, thanks everyone for the advice! I now understand the purpose and benefits of forged versus cast. Larger Dave, amazing pictures! Gbauer, we meet again! So if I were going for Nitrous, forged might be for me. But the forged pistons I was looking at are $600, cast are around $150. That $450 goes a long ways.

I talk to the rebuilder tomorrow. Cast it is!

Mark
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

For every day driving on the street there is no need in spending the extra money on forged pistons. Cast replacements will work fine. With the forged pistons you would have to listen to piston noise until the engine gets warm. Whereas the cast pistons clearances are tighter so less noise on cold starts. Do yourself a favor and get these seal power pistons from Ebay for $39.00. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVY-250-CAMARO-CAPRICE-IMPALA-PISTON-RINGS-E263K-030-/370243392383 just make sure about the correct compression height just like a V8 so the quench will be .035-.045.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

For every day driving on the street there is no need in spending the extra money on forged pistons. Cast replacements will work fine. With the forged pistons you would have to listen to piston noise until the engine gets warm. Whereas the cast pistons clearances are tighter so less noise on cold starts. Do yourself a favor and get these seal power pistons from Ebay for $39.00. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVY-250-CAMARO-CAPRICE-IMPALA-PISTON-RINGS-E263K-030-/370243392383 just make sure about the correct compression height just like a V8 so the quench will be .035-.045.
Thanks Cdminter. I cleaned a piston tonight and found 030 on it. We'll see what the machine shop says when I take it in. I don't think it'll take much to clean up as it looks like a recent overhaul with something gone awry. Will ask him to look for these type.

Mark
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

What happened that you are rebuilding the six cylinder again. If the pistons you have are .030 you need to take the block in to have it checked to see if it needs boring again. Maybe you will get by with just honing.
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Hypereutectic are more than enough for a normally aspirated street engine. Why stick with cast or pay the price for forged pistons?
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Personally, I would go with hypers as well. I am putting a set of KB flat tops in a high torque low rpm roller motor for my El Camino right now.

But, they do have their detractors. Probably from the more hard core racer types. Very good value for the $.

Doug, look at that auction again. It is JUST FOR RINGS, not pistons.

Also, even though forged pistons are apparently off the table for this build, the following statement is a myth if the clearances are correct: "With the forged pistons you would have to listen to piston noise until the engine gets warm."

I have 45 year old GM factory forged pistons made by TRW in my LT-1, and I never get any piston slap on start up, even if it has been sitting for a few weeks.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

What happened that you are rebuilding the six cylinder again. If the pistons you have are .030 you need to take the block in to have it checked to see if it needs boring again. Maybe you will get by with just honing.
The plan is to turn this from a 230 to a 250, put in a moderate CAM and a high performance head.

With compression on the low end (105-110 vs. specs 130), the backfiring, and the oil burning (valves leaking big time), I assumed the engine was going to be really rough. I had the engine pulling party last weekend and was really surprised to find that the engine looked really good inside. I've put 3500 miles on the engine, previous owner did no work for 5 years (200 mi/year), so it looks like it was overhauled >7 years ago. The honing marks look really deep, the marks are colored similar to that of rust, but don't know if that's rust. It really doesn't look like the rings seated properly.

Since I'm converting from 230 to 250, I'll need new pistons. It'll bump the compression from 8.5 to 9.25 by putting in flat-top pistons from a 307.

Yeah, I'm hopeful that all it needs is a light honing. I don't know what to take on the head. The CAM was installed correctly, so not the cause of the backfire. I thought maybe cyl 5 has a problem, but somebody else told me that is probably the best running cylinder.

Image


Image
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

Five is the one burning oil (that white residue on the exhaust valve is ash from he oil). Cylinder number four is running pig rich so I suspect your carb is leaking liquid gas into the manifold that flows directly into the number four cylinder. Three is also running rich with one and two also getting some oil fouling. You are complaining of low compression which when combined with oil contamination indicates to me bad ring sealing and oil control.

Just keep in mind most oil control issues with Chevy engines of this era were caused by valve guides oil slingers (rubber O-rings) getting dried out from excess heat turning brittle and then falling off. I always specified Studebaker Oil seals for the valves if I wasn't installing Perfect Circle Teflon plastic seals that required cutting the boss.

Check the block for cracks around the water pump and the head bolt holes because of the design it forces cold water against the number one cylinder and the underside of the deck of the block which caused stress in that area. This is the reason you have to be careful the engine stays cool. Back in the day your gas monkey at the pump would pop the radiator cap with a rag, then run away from the resulting geyser. After it stopped steaming he would then pour cold water back in the radiator to replace the coolant and rust that he had showered over your car. This caused more blocks to crack than I could count.

I used to sell six or seven 283 or 327 SBC along with 194/230/or 250 cid L-6 engines out of the back of my one ton truck to used car lots around town. I had previously gone down to Black Point in Tampa to pull rebuildable cores out of rail cars full of scrap iron from up and down the East Coast and out of the Mid-West (all bound for Japan via the Panama Canal). I bought the engines at current scrap metal prices tore them apart to see why they were in the scrap pile, did most of the machine work myself and then reassembled them with new rings and bearing on the cheap. What I couldn't use I traded back in the next week when I would pull out another eight to ten motors. Recycling at it's best.

I did this to support my drag racing habit. A friend of mine installed the motors I had dropped off and I bought the old motor at scrap metal prices the following week when I came around again to see if they needed another motor. They often said they wanted a SBF V8 or a Ford or Mopar six, but I stayed true to only working on Chevy engines. No one else picked up on this need apparently.

Big Dave
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

What year(s) was that Dave? Maybe I read about you in Hotrod Magazine?
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

That was back in the early seventies. To my knowledge no one wrote anything about me or took any pictures (I got a second Bachelors degree in 1987 in Fine Arts; Photography, but I never owned a camera before I started taking those classes with the intention of supplementing my retirement income by selling my prints). You can see on line what photographs are worth now, so that was another $23,000 in camera bodies and lenses that was a waste of time and money.

Big Dave
 
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

That was almost to the second when digital cameras were invented. Ouch.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Re: Forged Aluminum Pistons vs. Cast Iron

If all you're doing is regular street driving, the cast aluminum (they're not cast iron) are perfectly fine.
Kyvox, LOL, I mixed up that cast meant cast iron, not aluminum. Thanks for the correction.


Five is the one burning oil (that white residue on the exhaust valve is ash from he oil). Cylinder number four is running pig rich so I suspect your carb is leaking liquid gas into the manifold that flows directly into the number four cylinder. Three is also running rich with one and two also getting some oil fouling. You are complaining of low compression which when combined with oil contamination indicates to me bad ring sealing and oil control.

Just keep in mind most oil control issues with Chevy engines of this era were caused by valve guides oil slingers (rubber O-rings) getting dried out from excess heat turning brittle and then falling off. I always specified Studebaker Oil seals for the valves if I wasn't installing Perfect Circle Teflon plastic seals that required cutting the boss.

Check the block for cracks around the water pump and the head bolt holes because of the design it forces cold water against the number one cylinder and the underside of the deck of the block which caused stress in that area. This is the reason you have to be careful the engine stays cool. Back in the day your gas monkey at the pump would pop the radiator cap with a rag, then run away from the resulting geyser. After it stopped steaming he would then pour cold water back in the radiator to replace the coolant and rust that he had showered over your car. This caused more blocks to crack than I could count.

I used to sell six or seven 283 or 327 SBC along with 194/230/or 250 cid L-6 engines out of the back of my one ton truck to used car lots around town. I had previously gone down to Black Point in Tampa to pull rebuildable cores out of rail cars full of scrap iron from up and down the East Coast and out of the Mid-West (all bound for Japan via the Panama Canal). I bought the engines at current scrap metal prices tore them apart to see why they were in the scrap pile, did most of the machine work myself and then reassembled them with new rings and bearing on the cheap. What I couldn't use I traded back in the next week when I would pull out another eight to ten motors. Recycling at it's best.

I did this to support my drag racing habit. A friend of mine installed the motors I had dropped off and I bought the old motor at scrap metal prices the following week when I came around again to see if they needed another motor. They often said they wanted a SBF V8 or a Ford or Mopar six, but I stayed true to only working on Chevy engines. No one else picked up on this need apparently.

Big Dave

Big Dave, thanks for the critique, I spent last winter installing power disc brakes and power steering. Just got to the engine now.

I scraped off some gasket, didn't see any cracking, but my eye isn't trained and I didn't scrape everything off. I'll take this to the mechanic later this week.

The original carb had some backfiring and was drip, drip, dripping gas even after the rebuild, so I replaced it with Holley 390CFM (0-8007) and offy intake. Performance got better (old carb: 0-60 in 26 sec, holley: 20 sec, hah). Backfiring got worse, especially when cold. light touch and full throttle were OK, medium throttle backfire city. Advancing the timing to 20 BTDC (yes, 20 is right) reduced the backfire significantly (worse when cold). I put in HEI because I was going to anyways but zero difference. I thought maybe due to some sort of vacuum leak with a carb that was running leaner. I put on my new headers and exhaust to rule out a plugged muffler (it sure rattled a lot, though) with no change other than sounding really good. I then figured the problem was likely inside the engine somewhere and said enough with it, on to the 250 conversion. The new CAM gear has the dots aligned properly, which when installed wrong is an obscure oops sometimes made. The one valve looks like it was running hot to me.

On the carb, I didn't do anything with the jets at all. I couldn't find documentation saying what the jets are stock other than saying they're optimized for six cylinder and are nearly optimal in every application. I'll have to look it up and buy some smaller jets. Recommendations on how to choose the right size?

Thanks!!
Mark
 
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