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Long Tube BB Headers that Fit '69's?

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57vette

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1969 Camaro Restomod
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Seems like almost every brand of header has its fit issues, especially if you can't spend several hundred on a set. I'm looking to replace my generic black headers with either SS or Ceramic Coated headers, and I already have a 3" SS full PYPES setup from the current 3" collectors back. Trying to keep it around $500 if I can, even though there's cheaper ones on eBay that are SS or Ceramic. Pretty sure with PYPES and OBX make SS BBC headers for the Camaro.

Main concerns; (a) the fit with Quick Power Steering, (b) the fit with the Pass Side UCA Bolt, (c) interference with the pitman arm if any, and (d) hanging too low at the collector. My car has Hotchkis 2" drop springs up front.

Anything you guys can share would be appreciated.-Thx
 
#2 ·
Hello Mike

"Been There, Done That"

I swapped a SB for a BB and went thru some Header Pains, I went with the Doug's D-320.

This is my Post with plenty of Pictures, I had to Cut about 1/2" off my R/H UCA Bolt (Right Hand Upper Control Arm Bolt) and Reroute the Factory Pre-bent SS 3/8" Fuel Line (The Right Stuff)

http://www.camaros.net/forums/18-engine/283001-big-block-headers-my-3-cents-dougs-d320-r.html

I also made a Heat Shield for my P/S Hoses.

Also, Is that your Car with the Standard Trans ?
You will need to Clear your "Z" Bar and Clutch Linkage.

My Steering Linkage all Clears and I have the 2" Hotchkis Drop Springs.

Your $ 500.00 for a set of Quality Coated Headers or SS is Tight, With all the work involved with Replacing your Headers on a Great Ride, Don't be Cheap.
Your work and Money invested will give you many years of a Great Install.

The 2nd thing I look at when the Hood is open is the Exhaust Manifold/ Headers if equipped (After I look for the BB/ SB "Thing"),
Nothing worse than a great looking car and Rusty Headers, IMHO :wink2:

Do it right Once !

Timmy
 

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#4 ·
X2 on the Lemon's - they truely are a work of art! I have seen in the past a lot of people have good luck with Doug's, but since everything in my car was aftermarket performance stuff, Doug's did not recommend their product to me for my application. FYI - even the Doug's are in the upper $700 range
 
#5 ·
pittpens24 said:
X2 on the Lemon's - they truely are a work of art! I have seen in the past a lot of people have good luck with Doug's, but since everything in my car was aftermarket performance stuff, Doug's did not recommend their product to me for my application. FYI - even the Doug's are in the upper $700 range
Click to expand...
Mike
X3 on the Lemon's !

I do wish I had Lemon's at twice what it costs me for my Doug's,
My Doug's D320-R were like $ 595.00 $1045.00 after sending them out to Jet Hot.

Like Frank and Greg said, A work of Art.

If I ever remove my Engine, I would probably go for the Lemons.
They Look Beautiful !

With that said, at the Time, I felt I was still trying to build a great car with a little "Funding Control" in place.

Now that I have had my Car on the Road for a few years, it's a little easier to do another Upgrade to it, Switching to a Standard Transmission this Fall.

So With your BB, Standard Transmission and Power Steering, when you find a Header, be careful of "What Fits" !

I was told "the Hooker 2457's Fit like a Glove", Did not for me with Power Steering, then they would send a Picture and they had a Manual Box or Beat the Primary Tube and sanded down the Bolt and corner of the Box.

Wait until you have the $$$ for something that Fits properly.
Timmy
 

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Discussion starter · #6 ·
One of the guys on the Camaro Facebook page has had excellent luck with his Hedman Headers, here's some pictures:

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His comments were that the right combination of BB motor mounts and frame mounts made the difference. He has zero problems with clearance and said the headers are easily removable as well.

While I appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the Lemon headers, I can't personally justify that kind of expenditure for something that has such a crazy cost/value in a car that I'll describe as a "nice driver" LOL. If I was building a car for SEMA and had a $150K budget perhaps I wouldn't cut corners on headers. Performance wise... a decent set of headers like Hedman, Patriot, OBX, Dougs, or Hookers aren't going to be hurting performance of a cruiser or maybe even an occasional run to the track car.

Have you ever seen the smashed header dyno test? If you haven't check it out:

 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
I forgot to mention in the above comment that the car does have tubular upper & lower control arms and perhaps he did (not confirmed) shorten the rear PS UCA bolt a quarter inch. But it appears that suspending the motor in the proper angle and height can make a world of difference. My current headers have the typical "dent" at both the rear corner of the steering box and right next to the OEM style UCA rear bolt. When I swap in the disk brakes, I'm also swapping in tubular UCAs as well. Might help.
 
#8 ·
By the looks of those Hedman's, I'd give them a shot if the price were right. It looks like there is a ton of room. I'm running Doug's on my BB. I'm with you on the Lemon's. I almost choked on the Doug's price, I couldn't imagine spending Lemon's money unless it was for a dragster or something.
 
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#9 ·
#10 ·
I just did a whole new exhaust system on my 69 big block. The previous owner used reproduction cast iron manifolds and a cheapy 2-1/4" crossflow muffler system to break in the motor and then never got around to swapping in a performance system because he was diagnosed with cancer. That's basically how I scored the car.

Here's what I knew going into it: the car was originally a 350, turbo 350 car that had been converted to a 427 big block with a Tremec 5 speed. According to the previous owner (who happens to be a friend of a friend so I trusted his word) he used the proper big block frame mounts, motor mounts, and transmission crossmember. So based on what a lot of guys were saying, I should have had no issues installing a set of headers.

So now the situation is what header to use. Lemons get the best reviews but at $1800 a set, that seems an insane amount of money to spend on a street driven only car that sees less than 1000 miles a year. Hooker and Doug's had good reviews but also had several guys who claimed that even with all the stars aligned, they STILL had to ding the header to achieve proper fitment. I'm not a cheap guy by any means but I have a real issue spending $600-$700 for a set of headers only to have to massage them to fit.

So after reading and researching all winter here's what I did: I made the decision to go with a set of Sanderson shorty headers. For two main reasons. EVERYONE who has them raved about what a quality product they were and how fantastic the fit was. The second reason I chose them is because at some point in the future, I have plans to lose my car a little and go with a set of 17 or 18" wheels and tires. If you've played with Musclecars long enough, you've heard or felt that gut wrenching sound/feel of your long tube headed scraping on a speed bump. Again, I hate to spend $600-$700 on a set of headers only to scrape the Hell out of them.

The only drawback to shorty headers is that nobody makes a mandrel bent "down pipe" to connect the shorty header to any of the popular exhaust systems out there. Most of these systems are set up for long tube headers and not shorty's. That was easily covered by ordering 2 mandrel bent "J" pipes from eBay for $17.00 each.

I did the header install myself with the help of a buddy and it went off quite easily. The passenger side went in without any issues and in the interest of making things easier, we jacked/tilted the motor a hair to get the driver's side in but it was again quite easy.

Then I took my car and my new system to a custom fabrication shop where he took my "J" pipes and made me 2 mandrel bent down pipes to connect the shorty headers to the new exhaust system I had purchased.

Here's a list of what my pricing was:

New "display" Sanderson big block shorty headers p/n: BB-10. $400 shipped.

2 new mandrel bent "J" pipes $34.00 shipped

Flowmaster 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust system for 67-68 Camaro. $425.00 shipped

2 new Spintech 6334 street performance mufflers $189.00 shipped

2 new V band clamps $20.00 shipped.

1 set of aluminum collector gaskets $12.00

Labor for custom exhaust system install $525.00

My total cost for parts and labor came to $1605.00. Once everything was completed, I sold my old manifolds for $150.00 and the leftover brand new Flowmaster mufflers for $100.00. So all in all my new system cost me $1355.00 out of pocket.

My 69 has a mildly built 427 that puts out an estimated 450HP. Again, I just couldn't justify spending $1800 on just a set of headers when I could get the whole system installed for $1300.00.
 
#11 ·
Yes Lemon's are expensive, but for that high price, they are ceramic coated. By the time you buy a set of "X-brand", fit them, ding them, package them, ship them off to Jet-Hot or a likewise competitor and get them back, you are not too far off the Lemon's price without the extra time to fit them in the first place.
 
#12 ·
I've been going thru the archives over the last couple of days and have questioned header fitment here on the message boards before as well and was again going to post another question until I saw this thread. I frankly don't get why my headers don't fit now when they used to fit 25 years ago. I now have a straight sub-frame, correct 69 BB frame towers (3980941/942), correct motor mounts for the 69 BB towers (from what I can see as I didn't order or install them), correct BB transmission cross-member, and Hooker 2457 headers (which used to fit with no issues). Somewhere something changed and all I can think is my old bent sub-frame which was replaced, held the motor differently and gave the necessary header clearance. But why would that be the case? If all the parts are correct, it would seem that it would fit especially if it fit with a bent sub-frame. I've seen people put washers under the driver side motor mount to gain clearance and shave bolts, yada yada but mine seems beyond that.
Here are a few pics to show what I have and maybe someone sees something that I don't and can share.
FYI: It's a manual trans car with power steering.
Thanks, Jim
 

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Discussion starter · #13 ·
Greg... If possible, could you post some pictures of your shorty header setup? And was there a specific reason other than you found a set of display headers that you went with Sanderson? I've already got a brand new 3" PYPES SS exhaust system from header collector back using brand new Magnaflows, so If I actually went the shorty route... I'd only need to build the down pipe to feed into my existing system. I've got a local custom muffler shop that could probably do that.

At this point, I'm in the research mode, there are other projects that have to get done first LOL. I'll live temporarily with my current black no-name long tubes with the two dents! But I am curious about what works and what doesn't to save me some grief.
 
#14 ·
57vette said:
Greg... If possible, could you post some pictures of your shorty header setup? And was there a specific reason other than you found a set of display headers that you went with Sanderson? I've already got a brand new 3" PYPES SS exhaust system from header collector back using brand new Magnaflows, so If I actually went the shorty route... I'd only need to build the down pipe to feed into my existing system. I've got a local custom muffler shop that could probably do that.

At this point, I'm in the research mode, there are other projects that have to get done first LOL. I'll live temporarily with my current black no-name long tubes with the two dents! But I am curious about what works and what doesn't to save me some grief.
Click to expand...

Here are some pics of the Mid length headers I went with on the recommendation of another TC member. I ran Hookers on the car since 1980 and feel like I have a life time of listening to them scrape over every speed bump I crossed. :( I havent drug the exhaust once since going with these. :hurray:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/13-performance/302529-68-camaro-427-exhaust-2.html
 
#15 ·
57vette said:
Greg... If possible, could you post some pictures of your shorty header setup? And was there a specific reason other than you found a set of display headers that you went with Sanderson? I've already got a brand new 3" PYPES SS exhaust system from header collector back using brand new Magnaflows, so If I actually went the shorty route... I'd only need to build the down pipe to feed into my existing system. I've got a local custom muffler shop that could probably do that.

At this point, I'm in the research mode, there are other projects that have to get done first LOL. I'll live temporarily with my current black no-name long tubes with the two dents! But I am curious about what works and what doesn't to save me some grief.
Click to expand...
When I started doing my research, I saw that header fitment was all over the place. One guy said Hooker fit perfectly and then next guy had all kinds of issues. That scenario seemed to apply to Doug's and Heddman as well. The only set of headers that had zero complaints or issues was Sanderson. That led me to go with them. I only grabbed a display set because they were about $200.00 less than a set of new ones.

The header install was pretty easy. Other than tilting the driver's side slightly to get the left header in, everything else was a breeze. I'm VERY happy with the whole set up.

Here are some pics of my set up:

Engine:

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Driver's side underneath:

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Passenger side underneath:

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Front view:

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Rear view:

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#16 ·
GMW468 said:
When I started doing my research, I saw that header fitment was all over the place. One guy said Hooker fit perfectly and then next guy had all kinds of issues. That scenario seemed to apply to Doug's and Heddman as well. The only set of headers that had zero complaints or issues was Sanderson. That led me to go with them. I only grabbed a display set because they were about $200.00 less than a set of new ones.

The header install was pretty easy. Other than tilting the driver's side slightly to get the left header in, everything else was a breeze. I'm VERY happy with the whole set up.

Here are some pics of my set up:

Engine:

Image
Click to expand...
Nice looking set up and clean install.
 
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Discussion starter · #17 ·
Greg... Thanks for the pictures. So the shorties don't get near the UCA or the PS Box? Can't really see the PS box but I don't see a header tube so I guess its tucked nicely against the block?

They did a nice job on the exhaust system. Looks clean.
 
#18 ·
57vette said:
Greg... Thanks for the pictures. So the shorties don't get near the UCA or the PS Box? Can't really see the PS box but I don't see a header tube so I guess its tucked nicely against the block?

They did a nice job on the exhaust system. Looks clean.
Click to expand...
I don't have any clearance issues with the control arm or the steering box. I'm VERY pleased with the Sanderson headers. My car has a mildly built 427 that's probably putting out about between 425-450 HP and I only use the car for local cruising. It will never see the track or a road race course, so I wasn't worried about any HP or Torque loss with the shorty headers vs long tubes.


It's supposed to be 70 degrees here in PA today and I'm taking my car out with some buddies to a local car cruise. I'll get some better pics of the header fitmnet on the driver's side. I'll post them up later today.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
GMW468 said:
I don't have any clearance issues with the control arm or the steering box. I'm VERY pleased with the Sanderson headers. My car has a mildly built 427 that's probably putting out about between 425-450 HP and I only use the car for local cruising. It will never see the track or a road race course, so I wasn't worried about any HP or Torque loss with the shorty headers vs long tubes.


It's supposed to be 70 degrees here in PA today and I'm taking my car out with some buddies to a local car cruise. I'll get some better pics of the header fitmnet on the driver's side. I'll post them up later today.
Click to expand...
Thanks... enjoy the weather! I'm sort of in the same boat... Ive got a built 454 thats putting out about 500-525 HP according to the engine builder, but this car will never see the track... its a cruiser. So I would consider forgoing the long tubes if it meant a hassle free install with nothing rubbing. And honestly... I don't know what the HP/Torque loss would be with shorties versus longtubes, but I think its minimal when compared to cast iron manifolds LOL.
 
#20 ·
57vette said:
Thanks... enjoy the weather! I'm sort of in the same boat... Ive got a built 454 thats putting out about 500-525 HP according to the engine builder, but this car will never see the track... its a cruiser. So I would consider forgoing the long tubes if it meant a hassle free install with nothing rubbing. And honestly... I don't know what the HP/Torque loss would be with shorties versus longtubes, but I think its minimal when compared to cast iron manifolds LOL.
Click to expand...
So I took a few pics of the clearance between the header and the P/S gear box. I'm hoping that this captures what you want to see. As I said previously, everything I had read during my research said that the Sanderson headers fit really well with no need to "ding" the header tube. My experience proved this to be true for my application. It was one of the easier headers installs I've dealt with.

Here's the pics:

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