Currently looking into getting a newer Suburban/Yukon, 03 or 04 model. Noticed that all of the trucks I found online were made to run on either gas or this E85 "flex fuel", 85% ethanol? Here's the kicker though, there's only like 5 places in Texas to purchase this stuff, and the closest one to me is about 500 miles away? Anybody know what the deal is with this stuff? The truck will run on either/or, so what are the advantages/disadvantages of buying one of these vehicles? From what I've googled so far, it was a big automaker/government conspiracy, apparently, because they made XXX amount of these "flex fuel" cars, they were able to continue to sell other gas guzzlers? Even though you can't get the E85 fuel anywhere? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
04 Suburban E85 Flex Fuel - Methanol?
kz1000ltd
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Currently looking into getting a newer Suburban/Yukon, 03 or 04 model. Noticed that all of the trucks I found online were made to run on either gas or this E85 "flex fuel", 85% ethanol? Here's the kicker though, there's only like 5 places in Texas to purchase this stuff, and the closest one to me is about 500 miles away? Anybody know what the deal is with this stuff? The truck will run on either/or, so what are the advantages/disadvantages of buying one of these vehicles? From what I've googled so far, it was a big automaker/government conspiracy, apparently, because they made XXX amount of these "flex fuel" cars, they were able to continue to sell other gas guzzlers? Even though you can't get the E85 fuel anywhere? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
The E85 is at many stations around here. I haven't looked but I think my '04 F150 will run on the stuff. I need this truck to go for many years so I'm not going to experiment. Now I can tell you when I first saw this I was ready to pump the Camaro full because of the 105 octane sticker but luckily read the sign first.
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the "E" in "E85 means "Ethanol", not methanol..
now that i got that out of the way, it is great stuff- and EVERY new car can run it. they just don't tell you that for marketing purposes.
as for availability, around here in central MN, i don't think you'd have to drive farther than 20 miles to get it. i run it in the 84 Regal T type, and that little turbo V6 loves the stuff. my cousin tried it in his 396 powered 66 Chevelle, and it ran better than any other pump gas.
the trade off is that your mileage will go down some- but in my case with the Regal, the cost per mile went down, but i gotta stop at the station more often.
now that i got that out of the way, it is great stuff- and EVERY new car can run it. they just don't tell you that for marketing purposes.
as for availability, around here in central MN, i don't think you'd have to drive farther than 20 miles to get it. i run it in the 84 Regal T type, and that little turbo V6 loves the stuff. my cousin tried it in his 396 powered 66 Chevelle, and it ran better than any other pump gas.
the trade off is that your mileage will go down some- but in my case with the Regal, the cost per mile went down, but i gotta stop at the station more often.
Ethanol. Gotcha. The question remains. Given the fact I'm not going to drive 500 miles to fill my tank, what are the advantages/disadvantages to having this system on my vehicle? All things being equal, should I just go ahead and find a regular gas "Suburban"? That's all I'm really trying to decide, does it make sense to have one, if you can't get the E85 for it? Will the fuel system do strange things because of it? Will the mileage be any different? Will it run any different? Are there any "extra" parts that can "wear out", just by it being there? Should I not even worry about it?
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E85 is pretty corrosive stuff. Not recomended unless your fuel system is E85 compliant. When we convert a storage tank we have to change the piping and possibly apply an epoxy coating to the inside of a tank. Special hoses and parts all over.
This site has some good info, including a link to what vehicles are compliant. usually they have some type of FFV with a little corn leaf on the fender.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/ethanol.html
The the only reason they don't run it 100% is to keep people from drinking it. 15% petroleum gasoline would keep me from drinking it.
Good info, I have been doing a lot of research on B20 and E85. Its what I do, MSgt, USAF Fuels Specialist.
This site has some good info, including a link to what vehicles are compliant. usually they have some type of FFV with a little corn leaf on the fender.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/ethanol.html
The the only reason they don't run it 100% is to keep people from drinking it. 15% petroleum gasoline would keep me from drinking it.
Good info, I have been doing a lot of research on B20 and E85. Its what I do, MSgt, USAF Fuels Specialist.
Good question. I pulled up to the pump that had previously had 95 octane (declared racing only). There was the E85 105 octane, and my son said no don't put it in it's not the same as real 105 octane gasoline.
How 'bout it Tim, how does the octane rating equate.
How 'bout it Tim, how does the octane rating equate.
True story. Went to a Chevy dealership here in McKinney to get some information. Came up to about 4 salesman looking at a 07 Tahoe, not young guys either, I'd say they ranged from 30-55. "Hey guys, gotta question for ya! What can you tell me about this E85 Flex Fuel stuff?" I sware to you, they looked at me like I was insane! "HUH?????" I tried to explain it to them, I got about 2 sentences out and I could tell I was way out of my league. I told them to nevermind and walked away. Friggin rediculous. Just forget I asked, I'll go buy a FORD!!!!!!!!!! :angry:
Hey i have a friend that put that 106 e85 crap in his car. he ahs a 69 camaro with a 468 big block. He said he already had half a tank of 110 race fuel in it. He said he started it up and drove and about 15 minutes later that car lost power wouldn't idle worth a crap at red lights. he was asking me what he needed to do and will this hurt the motor since he has it in there. i told him he needed to dump that out. That stuff is just like running 87 in there. but i was posting this on here to see what you guys think he needs to do and what to check to see if it has harmed anything. I know i read on here that this stuff was harmful to your hoses and all. Is that true? also would it screw up your carb to?
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you do need to fatten up the jetting if you have a carb- similar to a regular alky tuneup. just dumping it in and hoping for the best on a fine tuned carbureted gas setup will make for an unpleasant experience- but if your car is already running pig rich and has waaay too much compression, you won't have to change anything.
personally, if i had a 12:1 motor that needed 100 octane gas, i think i'd be setting it up for the $1.70 a gallon stuff instead of the $5 a gallon stuff. but i'm funny like that.
it works in newer cars with no changes becasue they run off the o2 sensor and fatten it up to compensate automatically.
i have to ask- what WOULD you have to change in a new car to make it a "flex fuel" car? they already have plastic gas tanks and most of them have plastic fuel lines. and i'm sure everything else would be pretty safe from corrosion, since all the "street legal" gas has at least 10% alcohol in it already.
personally, if i had a 12:1 motor that needed 100 octane gas, i think i'd be setting it up for the $1.70 a gallon stuff instead of the $5 a gallon stuff. but i'm funny like that.
it works in newer cars with no changes becasue they run off the o2 sensor and fatten it up to compensate automatically.
i have to ask- what WOULD you have to change in a new car to make it a "flex fuel" car? they already have plastic gas tanks and most of them have plastic fuel lines. and i'm sure everything else would be pretty safe from corrosion, since all the "street legal" gas has at least 10% alcohol in it already.
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So far probably just his reputation... :sad:Adaz71 said:
He, and maybe yourself if you're going to try to help him, needs to get informed about alternate fuels and make the proper modifications to his vehicle to allow him to run them.
I highly dought he has done any harm to his motor. If he isn't interested in doing the necessary changes, just have him drain the remaining fuel and refill the tank with the appropriate Gasoline type and it will run just as before once it is circulated to the engine.
For his and your benefit, I will try to explain the reason his tankfull of "105" didn't perform the way you both expected.
The main reason is Heat, or in technical terms, the BTU index of the two fuels. Regular Gasoline as we know it has a heat index of @105,000btu/lb while Ethyl Alcohol has an index of @86,000btu/lb. Alcohol (ethyl) has only @60% of the heat value/lb that gasoline does, so gasoline burns 'hotter' (and faster) than alcohols in general.
If you substitute Alcohol in the amount needed to make up the heat deficite, by increasing the flow or jet sizes in the carburetor, alcohol will actually product the same amount or more of horsepower out of the same engine. It also has a much higher octane rating, due to it's slower rate of burn (flame propagation), so preignition and 'knocking' is not a big a problem on higher compression engines.
Gasoline engine normally like stoichiometeric, or air/fuel, ratios around 14~15:1 where alcohol fueled engine need ratios @9:1 or lower. If you mix alcohol and gasoline you can raise that mixture to @11~12:1 with the same heat index. These are just general fiqures and will vary by the altitude and mixtures you run to get a given btu index from a fuel.
Sorry this is so long - but, it just a way of saying that if you use the fuels properly you will get the result you need.
Remember that they've run alcohol at Indy and many other racing venues for more than 75 years and most original automobiles back in Henry's-day were designed to run on alcohol - something must be good about it...
As always - JMHO's
John
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What John & Derrik said... exactly.
In simpler terms, some of these newer vehicles are "approved for e85" because the fuel system is made of stuff it won't corrode, and the injection and computer is designed with enough "adjustment range" so it will automatically dail in the proper mixture and timing for alcahol fuel.
Bottom line: fuel=gasoline, no difference from any other car/truck
fuel = e85 lower fuel cost. equal or better power, slightly less mpg
In simpler terms, some of these newer vehicles are "approved for e85" because the fuel system is made of stuff it won't corrode, and the injection and computer is designed with enough "adjustment range" so it will automatically dail in the proper mixture and timing for alcahol fuel.
Bottom line: fuel=gasoline, no difference from any other car/truck
fuel = e85 lower fuel cost. equal or better power, slightly less mpg
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Vintage 68 is right on the money with his post. Something else to remember is that our regular gasoline fuels octane rating is determined by the R+M method. I dont think the "aircraft use" 105LL is determined the same way. I think when the R+M method is applied to the aviation fuel it actually equates to around a 97 or 98 rating. I am not a chemist or anything and have not really delved into the particulars. My work is more towards the receipt, storage, issue, and base level quality control of fuels to make it short. Our base lab is minimal compared to the area fuels labs we send samples too for our major analysis'. The area labs do all the big stuff like octane ratings, lubricity and gravimetrical analysis and just about every other test you could imagine. We use this information to compare to contract requirements ensuring that what we put in our planes, vehicles and heaters is compliant with all applicable specifications.
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