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William

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Everybody needs to read the article "When Good Cams Go Bad" in the June 2006 Hot Rod.

Since virtually all new cars use roller cams passanger car oil has been reformulated to eliminate a key additive [ZDDP] necessary to protect flat tappet cams/lifters. An engine builder was quoted as saying he has seen more cam failures in the last 3 years than in the last 30. Cheap off-shore lifters are also a factor.

The article strongly advises using truck or racing oil or adding a bottle of cam/lifter prelube at each oil change for engines using flat tappets.
 
#2 ·
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but as of this model year all heavy duty trucks are required to run cats and reduce emissions. Cat has been building compliant engines for the past three years (which is one reason their stock is going through the roof) and has removed the zinc because it interferes with the O2 sensor.

My brother is Executive VP at Cat dealership so I get info like this all the time (he's always bragging on their innovations), not to mention lubricants and other chemicals to try for evaluation (like Cat corporate really cares about what I'm doing)


Larger Dave
 
#4 ·
William said:
Everybody needs to read the article "When Good Cams Go Bad" in the June 2006 Hot Rod.

Since virtually all new cars use roller cams passanger car oil has been reformulated to eliminate a key additive [ZDDP] necessary to protect flat tappet cams/lifters. An engine builder was quoted as saying he has seen more cam failures in the last 3 years than in the last 30. Cheap off-shore lifters are also a factor.

The article strongly advises using truck or racing oil or adding a bottle of cam/lifter prelube at each oil change for engines using flat tappets.
Click to expand...
What constitutes racing oil? I assume that Valvoline 10-30 or 10-40 is not racing oil.
 
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#6 ·
If I recally correctly, the GM Engine Oil Supplement contains a lot of zinc. That's likely the reasons they include it with many crate engines for breakin as well...

- Dave
 
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#7 ·
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=106

The all fleet is for diesels, heavy duty applications and assume has additives as stated for "valve train wear"..I have used in my 72 402 big block "tow-truck"..no specs on specifics.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=94

The racing oil is conventional (non-synthetic) and has extra zinc..apparantly the phosphorus is the contaminant that catalytic converters are trying to avoid which is part of the additive ZDDP. I have use the racing oil in performance engines in boat- both roller and flat tappet with success. I have read (some time ago) it does not rate as high as "standard" oils for moisture retention....some ideas for us that are paranoid!

Lots of articles if you google ZDDP including Shell's Rotella. Articles posted indicate that additives are generally to be avoided.
 
#8 ·
Ive seen this topic mentioned several times in the last couple months or so. Actually, the removal of zinc from oil isnt really new. I dont know exactly when it began to take effect, but I heard about it at least a year ago.

There are still a few out there that contain zinc, and like mentioned, its labeled "not for street use" and you have to read the labels carefully. The EOS is a good zinc supplement, but will it still remain available, or are they going to phase it out also?


dave
 
#9 ·
The entire article was a good read and I recommend it to all. In a nutshell, the reduction of zink (and other neat stuff) in motor oil has led to the increase in wear in engines, particularly talking about cam wear in new installations. The article did mention that Rottella as well as motor oils marked for racing contain higher levels of zink (and the neat stuff). It also mentions the EOS from GM. I am not a chemist at all, but in my 35 years of hot rods and engine building, with the early years at a chevy dealership (go figure), I never, I mean NEVER, had a cam fail. I was also taught, from day one, to add a can of EOS to the start up oil. I did this at the dealership ( thanks Dave Greer RIP), the old hot rod shop, and at home in my garage. Never a failure whether a stock rebuild or race, or street rod motor. So, I think there is some credence to what the article says.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Where does this leave synthetics? Amsoil, Mobil 1 etc.


Response to an email to Valvoline:
The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category is still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet foller engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM products is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, ... etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing). Valvoline conventional motor oils are still perfectly fine for the older flat tappet applications and will be completely safe for protection.
 
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#12 · (Edited)
I'm in the minority but as I've said, I thought the article was a white-wash. Everything is blamed for the recent rash of wiped lobes:

1) Improper break-in,..suddenly folks forgot how to break in a cam, even experienced engine builders.
2) Bad cam cores,..huh?
3) Bad lifters,..huh?? (there are at least a half dozen companies making lifters and I guess they too no longer know how to make a lifter)
4) The whole zinc arguement,..cams are won or lost on start-up and guess who's providing the break-in lube? If zinc were the difference, why don't cam companies provide a zinc additive with each cam?
5) Older blocks,..huh???

I don't know if Comp Cams came up with these findings or HR, but I read with a great deal of skepticism.

What the article barely touches on is the aggressiveness of lobes on newer cams,..this 'has' changed in recent years,..and I contend that oils, with or with out zinc are better lubricators today than those of yesteryear.

HR is in the biz of helping cam companies sell their latest and greatest and HR would be slow to ask Comp Cams for failure rates of newer grinds vs. older grinds. We don't hear of wiped lobes on HE cams or blue-printed GM performance cams such as the "151", which are made by Comp and the major cam co's.

We hear plenty about wiped lobes on XE cams a similar cams from others, and those that do survive, we hear/read reports of valve-train noise.

There are too many recent reports of failed cams to ignore, and it's easy for cam companies to blame something else,..not their design. At least HR realizes there's a problem,..a big step, but I feel they tap danced around the underlying reason for the failures in order to keep a major advertiser happy.

Thank god for sites like this others so we can draw our own conclusions.

My opionion.
 
#13 ·
I spoke with a buddy that owns the local Chevron, and he said Delo/Rottella commercial grade oils(GF-3) still have ZDDP(a little less than they used to) and have been fortified with Moly. These oils are for for diesel trucks that do not have catalytic converters; the story he told was that it was the cats going south, not the O2 sensors, due to the zinc.
 
#15 ·
I inquired at Amsoil about their latest info. on this issue and got this informative email back today. It sheds some light on the chemistry involved and how the Syn makers are looking at it.


In response to your email concerning flat tappet camshafts and engine oil:
There have recently been several inquiries concerning this topic, mostly due to the new API oil specifications and some of the limitations on certain additive levels such as zinc and phosphorus (ZDP). I guess we can start with what most people concerned with this are led to believe. If you lower ZDP levels, you lower wear protection. This is not entirely true. There are many different types of ZDP that can be used in engine oil that will provide equal amounts of wear protection at low levels as other ZDP additives at high levels. This is due to how active the ZDP type is to different temperatures and pressures. You can manipulate the chemistry to meet the additive levels the API and ILSAC require, and still maintain good wear protection. Flat tappet camshafts have been around for many years even when engine oils were not formulated as well as they are today. Camshaft wear did not seam to be an issue back then, and should not be of any concern now.



I hope this helps to give some clarification about this topic. Engine oil chemistry is very unique and complex. It is not as easy as putting a certain amount of something in base oils, and getting a certain result.


Technical Service Department

AMSOIL, Inc.
 
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#16 ·
So will GM EOS harm catalytic converters? I'm tempted to throw half a can in all my cars at oil change, but obviously don't want to munge my converter...
 
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#17 ·
click said:
I inquired at Amsoil about their latest info. on this issue and got this informative email back today. It sheds some light on the chemistry involved and how the Syn makers are looking at it.


In response to your email concerning flat tappet camshafts and engine oil:
There have recently been several inquiries concerning this topic, mostly due to the new API oil specifications and some of the limitations on certain additive levels such as zinc and phosphorus (ZDP). I guess we can start with what most people concerned with this are led to believe. If you lower ZDP levels, you lower wear protection. This is not entirely true. There are many different types of ZDP that can be used in engine oil that will provide equal amounts of wear protection at low levels as other ZDP additives at high levels. This is due to how active the ZDP type is to different temperatures and pressures. You can manipulate the chemistry to meet the additive levels the API and ILSAC require, and still maintain good wear protection. Flat tappet camshafts have been around for many years even when engine oils were not formulated as well as they are today. Camshaft wear did not seam to be an issue back then, and should not be of any concern now.



I hope this helps to give some clarification about this topic. Engine oil chemistry is very unique and complex. It is not as easy as putting a certain amount of something in base oils, and getting a certain result.


Technical Service Department

AMSOIL, Inc.
Click to expand...
Kind of follows along the response given to me by Valvoline a few posts above. They both seem to say don't worry about new oil, you are protected.
 
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#18 ·
Thats how I read it too Gary. :)
 
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#19 ·
My Chevron dealer advised me to continue to use Delo. Better safe than sorry. My 96 Camaro has over 100K miles an still has the original O2 sensor and catalytic converter. Go figure.
 
#20 ·
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gmranch
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