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Block messed - what would you expect of machinist?

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#61 ·
i also may splurg and spend the $120 on head studs. its gonna be cheaper insurnace, and im not saying that if i used them in the first place this wouldnt of happend casue i still think it would, it just would took a while, and therefor ruining ALL my chances of gettin any help here
 
#62 ·
It also helps if you put deck plugs in, it strengthens the block some in that area. Also have the torque wrench calibrated just because it worked fine on one engine does'nt mean it is right, the other block may have been stronger.
 
#63 ·
Bill,,, how do you know you have the right voltage how do you known there wasn't too much amperage etc,,,, anyone can get way too far into this it can go on and on. There are some things that need to be assumed ie the voltage amps are correct, torque wrench is calibrated or if not is close enough. If those are suspect then a quick inspection of the torque wrench and a few quick quuestions of the assember should more than satisify anyone that the product was not being misused or abused. The botton line is that the block he purchased was being used for its intended purpose and it failed before it could even be assembled.
Eric
 
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#64 ·
Remember guys this is exactly why my machinist and MANY others do not sell blocks (especially 400 blocks) unless they can be assured they are good and will not fail when the customer installs them.

I bet Bill K and others in the trade have ways they protect themselves when asked to do machine work on something that is risky like 400's. Someone already mentioned signing waivers, that is one good way, not providing questionable cores is another.

My bet is that a court will find most of the drama about what 400 blocks do and do not do pretty much irrelevant. The law is pretty clear in this case (as I understand it) and this customer is entitled to a refund unless it can be shown that the engine assembler did something wrong.

IMO -- a good remedy for this situation would be the customer providing their own new core and the machinist machining it at no charge.
 
#66 ·
Well I guess I lied about that being my last response.

People took the TV thing a bit too far. First of all the TV is NEW not a 30+ year old USED block that nobody knows the history of. Next I said if you "dropped" the TV and broke it, not if you just plugged it in, that is the key to my point. Brand new items come with a warranty used racing car parts DO NOT.

Bob, If you get PO'd that easy, seek help.

Take the guy to court and see what happens, that's why we/you have a legal system. I think you will find yourself deeper in the hole than you already are (meaning not even getting the $300).

Have you called any other machine shops as I suggested to see what they have to say? If not why not?

I am pretty sure if you supplied another block he would take care of you.

Until then you may want to do research on plugging the deck on 400 blocks.

Eric, How can a machine shop "be sure" the block won't fail?

We also have no idea if the torque wrench in question is accurate. When was the last time it was checked? Before laying blame on the shop check yourself. I am shocked at the mentality of many about this situation. If you look at it logically and leave emotions/feelings out of it, it is pretty cut and dry. We all also have to remember we are ONLY hearing ONE side of the story. "If" the shop used torque plates on the block and the threads didn't pull or the block didn't crack at that time, How is the block "known to be weak"? To me that gives the shop even more ammo, he can stand there in court and say I put the recommended stress on the deck of that block and it held fine. A torque wrench doesn't stay calibrated all by itself. At some point it is no longer accurate, jsut because you used it last week doesn't mean that it is still good this week. Have it checked and then if it is still accurate (with documentation) present that to the machine shop (and the court if needed). This will give you a little back-up.

Do you have paper work on the machine work done? If so, is there any discalimer (small print) on the work order? Did you sign this work order? Before you go running to court you might want to make sure you have your facts and evidence togather. In court that's what it takes to make a case. Sympathy and compasion has no place in most courtrooms.

I know people think I am the bad guy here but, that is not the case. I am a very real person and see/tell things how I see it. With that said if it was my shop and you weren't a jerk, I would help you out (assuming I didn't warn you about possibilty of this happening). I would not refund you $1200 but, I would "try" to make you happy. I know a little about customer service as I have done it for over 17 years.
 
#67 ·
camaroman7d said:
Eric, How can a machine shop "be sure" the block won't fail?

I am in the service business (medical equipment) not auto. If I cannot be sure a part is good and it will not fail I do not sell it. Period. For that reason I do not sell used parts and our remanufactured equipment is extensively tested. Besides the obvious liability someone's life may depend on it. If I were in the auto machine business my policy would be very similar. If I cannot be reasonably sure it will not fail then I will not sell it.
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Furthermore ;) I can also say that managing my business for over 10 years I have chosen to take it in the shorts when the customer was (unlike this case) completely and without a doubt flat-out wrong. This has on occassion caused me to loose money in the short term, sometimes significant money, but has paid off with long term solid relationships with my customers.

The consequences of treating a customer like this are clear -- we already have two customers that are not going to use this shop again. Potentially more lost customers if the name of the shop gets out.
 
#68 ·
Maybe I am being mis-understood or not making myself clear. "I" would help the guy out if it were my shop. Like I said I have done customer service my whole life pretty much. I have worked on copy macgines to multi million dollar computer systems and lots of stuff in between. I always take care of the customer. In this case I would offer to machine another block for free. and maybe even offer a great deal to assemble the long block, to prevent this problem for happening again.

As far as taking out an ad in the local paper, be careful you could end up in court with a slander lawsuit. You can not prove the shop did anything wrong.

I have lost on deals in the past but, I sleep well at night because I know I treat everyone that I come into contact with respect and honesty. My comments on this are from a facts/evidence only stand point. Which is what the courts will look at. The guy doesn't "owe" you anything in my opinion. It is also my opinion the guy will make right on the deal IF you approach it the right way.
 
#69 ·
camaroman7d said:
We also have no idea if the torque wrench in question is accurate. When was the last time it was checked? Before laying blame on the shop check yourself. I am shocked at the mentality of many about this situation. If you look at it logically and leave emotions/feelings out of it, it is pretty cut and dry. We all also have to remember we are ONLY hearing ONE side of the story. "If" the shop used torque plates on the block and the threads didn't pull or the block didn't crack at that time, How is the block "known to be weak"? To me that gives the shop even more ammo, he can stand there in court and say I put the recommended stress on the deck of that block and it held fine. A torque wrench doesn't stay calibrated all by itself. At some point it is no longer accurate, jsut because you used it last week doesn't mean that it is still good this week. Have it checked and then if it is still accurate (with documentation) present that to the machine shop (and the court if needed). This will give you a little back-up.

Do you have paper work on the machine work done? If so, is there any discalimer (small print) on the work order? Did you sign this work order? Before you go running to court you might want to make sure you have your facts and evidence togather. In court that's what it takes to make a case. Sympathy and compasion has no place in most courtrooms.

I know people think I am the bad guy here but, that is not the case. I am a very real person and see/tell things how I see it. With that said if it was my shop and you weren't a jerk, I would help you out (assuming I didn't warn you about possibilty of this happening). I would not refund you $1200 but, I would "try" to make you happy. I know a little about customer service as I have done it for over 17 years.
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well today we test my torque wrench against 2 others. one of wich is a week old. all 3 wrenchs are quality units. and all 3 where the same as each other. 3 nuts where torqued to 65 ft lbs and then check wich the other 2 wrenchs. all are the same

as far as the fine print goes. there is non, and i signed noting

i never said your the bad guy, i apricate your point of view being on the other side of the coin in this situation.

when i called there today i got the usaual hes not in and dont know when hes coming in. so ill give me a shout 2moro
 
#70 ·
camaroman7d said:
As far as taking out an ad in the local paper, be careful you could end up in court with a slander lawsuit. You can not prove the shop did anything wrong.
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my dad advised me not to do this for that resone. i dont wanna make this worst then it is, i just want a motor in my car and ill be done with it. as far as me providing a block. where goin to ask him that. i do have a 400 block that needs to be sleaved due to a crack in the oddest of places. its already 30 over, so all he needs to due would be a sleave and bore one cylinder, deck it and a alinehone it with my studs. OR he can give me the block he has and ne done. eather way im using studs for the heads
 
#71 ·
Yeah . . . just show up at his doorstep. If that doesn't work call and make an afternoon appointment then show up two hours early so you can catch him on his way out the door. LOL
 
#72 ·
The next core you get you might want to look it over before buying it. Looks for signs of over heating or potential cooling area problems. Rusty inside the water jackets (ok they are all rusty but rust peeling from cylinder walls and big chunks of it in the engine) this will give you some idea of the condition of the bottom of the deck. Look at head surface for excessive pitting around water jackets and inside head bolt holes that go to water. Check all threads out in the deck. Check to make sure the steam holes are clear (if not it may have been getting hot) look at the lifter valley for hot spots like big baked on oil deposits might be something to look for or stains from heat. Lookat the mains and see if they are burt or blued. A crank that went bad can superheat the block in that area and send heat stress to the surrounding areas. Pull the gallery plugs and runa rod through them to see how clogged they are. Not only water cools the engine, oil does a little also. Ifthey are dirst and almost caked closed it did not have many oil changes and if they can't change oil they surely have not changed or taken care of the cooling system so it would be suspect in my opinion also. You will also want to pull the bottom block drain plugs. These will tell the story of the junk in the bottom of the block.
These are just some places to look. I don't think everyone will agree on what I said here but it just some of the stuff I look at and I am just trying to help.

I wish you luck with the guy and I hope you can work things out for the best for both of you, sometimes court is the only way but I really belive a cooling down period would be best for both. Call him and offer to buy lunch so the two of you can get on nutural ground have a juicy burger a cold glass of Ice Tea and talk about it like professional men. After all it is business and a little talking outside the scope of where he does business or over the phone can go long ways. I would say since your wanting as much back as you can get be the bigger man at all times and don't fall intoa name calling blame game. Just talk facts.

Joe
 
#73 ·
The machinest cannot "be sure" that the block won't fail. The same as Best Buy can not "be sure" that Sony is selling them a TV that won't fail.
The warranty is with the manufacture and not the store that you bought the item through.
The store will still take the TV back. The store will stand by the product it sells as the manufacture will its product.
That bad thing here is that is where the buck stops (with the machinest). He is the one who assumed the risk by offering the block for sale in the first place. He did not sell it "as is" good, bad, indifferent etc. This would be whole new ball game if this happened.

If I bought a used TV from someone who just worked on it, and assuming that I was buying that TV for its intended purpose, I would expect it to work when I got it home regardless of what its history was before he worked on it. The same goes for the block. He worked on it - then when he got home it could not be used for its intended purpose.

It does not make one ounce of difference what product you purchase if it is advertised as good for its intended purpose it should be good for its intended purpose used or new. If it turns out it fails for whatever reason it is the merchants responsibility to make it good.

It also does not make any difference if the crack was discovered before or after he took delivery. It sounds like the guy would still have demanded his money either way. I would understand owing him it if he was brought the 400 from an outside sourse....... scam

Call the guy and thank him for the $1200 boat anchor.
It's apparent that this guy has no intention nor does he care about you or his reputation.
It sounds like we all learned a lesson to stay with a well known machine shop with a good reputation.
Eric
 
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#74 ·
Bottom line. You got screwed. You did what any other semi-amatuer engine builder would have done. You believed the "machine shop" knew what he was doing and took his word to sell you a block that was good to go. You didn't think of going over and check the block yourself because you're not the machinest and don't have the experience to check everything. You believed the machinest would sell you a block in much better condition than you could find on your own and it probably gave you a "peace of mind". If you had bought the block off Ebay, you probably would have brought it to a machine shop and told them to check everything instead of assuming it was good because the average Joe said it was. I would have "assumed" if the machine shop says it's a good block, why should I go and check it myself. They're in the business, should know what to look at, and should know a "good" block. I would bet a lot of these horror stories of blocks pulling threads and cracking could have been found prior to assembly with measuring and sonic checking if the customer would have paid to have it done. For the shop to sell it as a good core, they should have done everything possible to make sure it was right. By law, I don't know who would win, but I do know you "owe" him a good Azz whoopin for not wanting to help out more than 300.00 and having the nerve to want to SELL you another machined block. Just tells you what kind of weasel you're dealing with.
 
#75 ·
camaroman7d said:
Bob, If you get PO'd that easy, seek help.
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Thank you for the concern camaroman7d, Im currently enrolled in an interenet anger management program. I'm doing quite well and expect to be out by mid sept. Well i gotta go my 30 second interenet session is up.

Good luck too all involved.


bob
 
#76 ·
So my neighbour is young like me...1200 is a huge amount to be out. He hopes for something?? Asks the guy 'now what' - the guy says all he can do is give yhim back his 300 that he charged him for the 400 block.

Do you guys think this is fair? what would you expect? Again, assume that you were still young and had no money and 1200 was a huge amount to you.
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No, The machinist can pull a good machined block out of his @$$ or refund the whole $1500.

For $1500 you can toss in $500 more and buy a NEW Block from Dart, or World. And they can take some HP
 
#77 ·
Remember that the machine shop is only out his COST if he supplies another block and/or machine work NOT his PRICE. Because of that a new block may be more attractive to him then a full refund.
 
#78 ·
Eric68 said:
Yeah . . . just show up at his doorstep. If that doesn't work call and make an afternoon appointment then show up two hours early so you can catch him on his way out the door. LOL
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as much as i would love to due this, hes an hour out of town, his shop pretty much has bankers houres AND hes there only half the time. the shop is filed with lies and passing the buck. my dad called there and they said hell be back later, so i called there and they say he went into the city(his in a small town and im in the city) the other thing its hard for me to take time off work for little things like this
 
#79 ·
Eric68 said:
Remember that the machine shop is only out his COST if he supplies another block and/or machine work NOT his PRICE. Because of that a new block may be more attractive to him then a full refund.
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he has a 509 block thats been sleeved, bored and decked, and he wants to charge me $700 for it. if he gave me this i would be satisfied. i would DEFINALTY use head studs. if i can get a 400 block im gonna order them right then and there. and if i cant get ANYTHING ill see if hell machine a block for me. ill get a 350 done and ill get my crank cut at MY machine shop and get it reballanced and make a stroker
 
Discussion starter · #80 ·
Agree on show up two hours early to see him heading on the door!

The trouble is he is so far out of the city that a quick pop-in is difficult. Esp b/c my buddy is a 9-5er, and his hours coincide exactly with the hours of the machine shop. One can only duck out of work three hours early so many times...


Also agree..on 'lesson for all' - all machinists are not created equal.
 
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