700 R4 Tranny

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

mstehle,
TCI and several other trans companies have a 'solenoid/convertor lock-up' wiring kit for these trans to install in older cars. its a little box could fit anywhere, and about 4ft of wiring...I just looked up the one 'painless' offers..theres more.

As far as the E part, personally I think its easier to tune shift points. its sounds complicated but all your doing is messing with voltage signals going to the solenoids...

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

Guys:

This is an interesting exchange of ideas. As I said earlier I have the choice of rear end gears to put in the car. Of course I want to be able to snap my neck and possibly run a quick 1/4 when I figure out how to get the tires to hook up :hurray: (or bolt slicks on) and I also want to be able to cruise the highway at something less than 3000 RPM's on the big block. This is why I am looking at a tranny with overdrive.

Here is a handy gear/tire/tranny ratio calculator to help determine how to set the car up. http://www.f-body.org/gears/ and a site that shows the ratios of various transmissions http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~biesiade/Specs.html These are great tools to use to input various tire sizes, rear end gear and transmission gear ratios to help set a car up. I have also done the math to figure out that a 3.55 rear end with a 700-R4 is the same as a 4.38 rear end in a TH400. The difference is that I can run 70 MPH at 2100 RPM with an overdrive transmission where as I will run over 3000 with the TH400.

My thinking is I would rather put $1,600-$1,800 in a new tranny and have to spend a few hundred $$ occassionally to R&R the tranny than grenade a motor and have to rebuild it every couple of years. Logically this makes sense to me but that is only logical thinking and is only valid if the available technology supports the theory. I may be misguided with my interpretation of the technology. It seems the main question is - does the technology of a readily available engineered and built up overdrive transmission from the sources we know about support the logic?

Please keep the conversation going, this is good stuff and I appreciate it alot.

Mark

67 Plum · Dec 29, 2006

I got caught up in the trans. debate and didnt ask a few simple questions.What RPMs are you making 600hp and Tq?If its a solid or roller cam motor making power at 6000 or 6500 rpms. you arent going to be happy trying to cruise at 1800 to 2000 rpms.If you are making it alot lower you could run a TH400 with a 3.08 or 3.31 gear.How much time do you plan to be on the highway?Most of our cars spend 90% of their time around town and 10% on the road.I went with a TH350 because of this.Not trying to talk you out of an overdrive just look at all options.

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

Plums right, good point. If your car is making 600 at 6750rpm's(myCALC) then the motor will load up(unless you constantly blow the cobs out) after 1000 or so miles and 'grenade'. learned this the hard way. A 1500$ 4L80E will suffice but with this tranny I personally would WANT the motor to spin a little harder at 70. keeps the cobs out.
A 1st gen camaro would do nicely with around 4:10's and a late model 4L80E if its built right...during build the trans guy can install the overdrive gear you/tranny guy choose as needed. just my opinion tho....I am not an expert, I payed attention when the been there done that crowd were talking.

South Side Goons & Hitmen · Dec 29, 2006

I agree with 67 Plum here as well. If you are not going to take this thing to the track go with 3:31 gears and THM 400. If you are going to race it in the 1/4 on occasion and want to run 3:55's, and are ok with spending the extra money, the 4L80E is da bomb!! Problem is, I never had a 4L80E so I'm not sure how that would work.

I'll let you know right now, like 67 Plum said earlier, you won't get it to hook up with highway gears on street tires. My old 396 just incinerated the tires I on the 3:08 gears I had in the stock 10 bolt. When I went to the 12 bolt and 3:73's I had a hard time hooking that up on street tires too....It was more of a street car so that did not bother me all too much.

P.S. When I bought my current 1969 Camaro it had a 12 bolt 4:10 & spool. I hated the spool for street purposes plus the Housing ends were hacked to install the C-clips. The C-Clip eliminators leaked bad. (Passenger side was awful), So I went with the Moser 12 bolt & 4:10. I should have gone 3:73.

P.P.S. My old 396 had a hydraulic valve train. No roller as I had to keep costs down back then. Hey I was a young kid back then. As the saying goes, if I only knew then what I know now...

P.P.P.S. I think an overdrive would be cool. First gear in the T-10 4 speed in my car now lasts about 10 feet with the 4:10. I still favor the THM400 for what you want to do. I've also heard that 700R4's grenade when you start to get over 450-500 Horsepower. At 600 HP it could be mush.

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

200r4's will go in ANY car as long as its not a BBC unless you willing to do the mods?. 200r4 is a great tranny for first gens with a SBC up to 450-500. 4L80E is large but I figured since he was asking the question he already did some research and decided on an overdrive tranny. the best fit in my opinion of course is the 4L80E if its gotta be a big block.
Now, the 4L60 and 65E is a great tranny. but it is BASICALLY a 700 R4 with an extra gear. the 80E can hold line pressure required for hard launches and still stay plenty cool behind a big block. 80E is a much better design.

200r4's are VERY long tranny's. but if you want it would work with your motor, if it is built properly with the gears you are chasing.

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

Guys:
All great questions. Here are some of the answers. Of course I am like most of us who want the best of both worlds. I want to run in the Power Tour so I will be spending a week at highway speeds. I also want to be able to ride distances to shows and places like Carlisle for the Nationals. In addition I want something that my wife can drive to shows so we can take two cars. I am not comfortable with her taking my L78 with M22. Perhaps a little too intensive of a driving experience for her after numerous years with a Subaru Outback. We may aso want to take it for a long weekend somewhere when I would like to take a real car as opposed to my Totota. The Toyota is a nice car but not necessarily the driving experience I am sometimes looking for.
Having said all that I also want to be able to run some street drag radials and hook it up as best I can for street performance. Not that I am going street racing because that is not what I will be doing, but it would be nice to have it to use it when I want it.

Am I being too cautious on this one? Will running for several straight hours at 3000 revs be okay with a motor like I am looking at building (Well actually the motor builder is building)? He builds good strong reliable motors. If so I will run the TH400 with 3.73 and be done with it. I have 3.73 in my L78 and certainly don't want to grenade that one because it is the original motor and has not been decked. Would hate to lose that one.

Thanks again

Mark

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

if he builds it right, that motor wont start breathing good until 3500-4000 anyway(a good thing). Your right, you want the best of both worlds, can I throw the first stone? I have seen a couple of cars in the 10's with a BBC, 4L80E and 4:56's. Sounds mean on the highway to the strip, change tires and go 10's all day...

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

wiskeesour said:
if he builds it right, that motor wont start breathing good until 3500-4000 anyway(a good thing). Your right, you want the best of both worlds, can I throw the first stone? I have seen a couple of cars in the 10's with a BBC, 4L80E and 4:56's. Sounds mean on the highway to the strip, change tires and go 10's all day...

Now those are two pretty good worlds to live in. I like the idea of just driving a street car that we know would run 10's if we put some slicks on it. :thumbsup: :yes:

Mark

67FamilyFun · Dec 29, 2006

wiskeesour said:
200r4's will go in ANY car as long as its not a BBC unless you willing to do the mods?. 200r4 is a great tranny for first gens with a SBC up to 450-500. 4L80E is large but I figured since he was asking the question he already did some research and decided on an overdrive tranny. the best fit in my opinion of course is the 4L80E if its gotta be a big block.
Now, the 4L60 and 65E is a great tranny. but it is BASICALLY a 700 R4 with an extra gear. the 80E can hold line pressure required for hard launches and still stay plenty cool behind a big block. 80E is a much better design.

200r4's are VERY long tranny's. but if you want it would work with your motor, if it is built properly with the gears you are chasing.

A 200-4R is the SAME length as a short tail TH350 and w/in a 1/8" of a PG...you can use the same driveshaft.

Has anyone here done/seen a 4L80E swap? It is ~32" long overall which is big. Are tunnel mods needed? Are aftermarket crossmembers avail, or are you fabbing? What is the cost of the 80LE swap vs. a built 200-4R swap? Will a stock 80LE stand up behind a 600HP BBC? or will it need modifications also?

Scott

South Side Goons & Hitmen · Dec 29, 2006

I'm curious on that one as well. The 4L80E was not around when I started modifying my first 1969 back in 1991 and finished it off in 1993.

I still think with a 427 @ 600 HP it won't start breathing until over 3 grand anyway. With your current 3:55's you will have the best of both worlds and that's with a less expensive and virtually indestructable THM400.

FWIW for those of you that know the Chi-town area, I drove my car from Chicago's South Side to Burbank to Addison to Orland Park and back in one day. That car saw rush hour traffic, hot days, thunderstorms etc. It only saw snow once and that $*cked!! All this was done with a 396 bored .030 over 12.5:1 regular competition cams 290 duration at .544 lift. 9" converter, 3000 stall, AWESOME THM400 built to withstand double the Horsepower I was putting out (500 horsey's). It was mated to a stock 12 bolt w/ 3:73 gears. Then when I worked in Addison it saw a commute of 30 miles one way and then 30 miles back 6 days a week. No problems.

mstehle, I don't blame you for being cautious. This is not 1991 when you can build an engine for $1,500 and for $1,500 more have it complete carb to pan turn key & run. I would be cautious too. This is almost 2007 and that engine will cost you HUGE money. But if my 396 w/ 3:73's can be driven on the highway 6 days a week your 427 with 355's and MORE horsepower will be just fine with a THM400. Remember that the Z28's were only 302's and most of those saw highway action with 3:73 & 4:10 gears. Same goes for SS 396. Some of those were THM 400 instead of M22 or M21 or maybe M20.

I still like the THM400. It can handle the pro-touring, your 427 is gonna ROCK and you have nice street gears & highway as well at 3:55 in the back. I doubt you will be at 3000 RPM at 65 MPH.

P.S. My 1999 Ford Explorer has 4:10 factory gears. It's the 4.0L SOHC V6 XLT with 210 HP and factory Heavy Duty everything with P 255/70/R16's. . I took the overdrive off last week just to see what it cruises at 55-65 MPH. It's around 3grand to 3,200. And that's not a fire breathing 427 with almost triple the horsepwer and 3:55's like your Camaro will be. I can't guarantee it in writing of course but IMHO you will be just fine with your 427, THM400 & 3:55's. I speak from experience.

Bottom Line: Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck with your car. I hope your wife will like it as well. Sounds the car is GONNA ROCK!!

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

nothing stock will stay behind a 600hp motor.
I have never installed a 4L80E in a 1st gen. Only in a few novas and some chevelles. not real sure about a 1st gen.

Strick · Dec 29, 2006

I am still a couple of months away for my 'vert's transformation. 383-425hp GM Crate, but the trans has me perplexed. I want a signal light to signal light MONSTER! I may take it to the strip once or twice just to bring back memories.

I have turbo 350 in my '56 (300-325hp) stock rear end 3.08's. I have a turbo 400 in my '55 (400-425hp) 8.5 10 bolt posi with 4.10s. I HATE to drive my '55 on the freeway, EVER! I was thinking 700R until reading this thread. Maybe the 200-4R (and 3.73s) OR stay with a built Turbo 350 and use 3.55's or less-->?

Of all the components to convert my 'vert to a pro-cruising sweety, the transmission is my biggest dilema. Keep in mind I MUST beat the Ford Shelby GT-500 signal to signal, and keeping abreast of the Z06 would also be pleasing! Oh, but I am going to put in a 100 shot - just to have it available. Hey the engine will be on a stand and NOS is cheap!

Any thoughts?

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

Strick,
a good 700r4 or 200-r4 would be great for you. no more than you need with same rear. A transmission controller for that tranny is cheap. just my .02

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

South Side:

I used the calculator I linked to earlier and with the tire/3.55 rear end/TH400 combination I will be at 3000 RPM at 70 mph.

Wiskee: I agree that nothing stock will last behind this kind of torque/HP. No doubt the tranny will have to be built. That is what prompted my search for a built 700-R4 which was the catalyst for this post.

Great input all. Keep it coming.

Mark

67 Plum · Dec 29, 2006

3000 @ 70 is alot by todays standards but everything has OD now.When the cars were new GM sold them with 3.73 , 4.10 and even 4.56.We have an 89 1ton with a 454 TH400 and 4.10 gears.Sure 2000 would be better than 3000 but I dont think the engine you are talking about is going to cruise at 2000 with a locked converter.Do you have cam specs?

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

67 Plum said:
3000 @ 70 is alot by todays standards but everything has OD now.When the cars were new GM sold them with 3.73 , 4.10 and even 4.56.We have an 89 1ton with a 454 TH400 and 4.10 gears.Sure 2000 would be better than 3000 but I dont think the engine you are talking about is going to cruise at 2000 with a locked converter.Do you have cam specs?

Don't have cam specs yet. Thsi is a true supply chain management exercise. I am working up front to select the right engine, tranny and rear end specs to put together an awesome car. Already found a great body on a driver with a non-matching 396 so that is taken care of. I do need to talk to the engine builder a little more before I make the final decision on tranny and rear end. You make a good point about the locked converter. I will have to double check on that. Thanks

Mark

67FamilyFun · Dec 29, 2006

Enjoying this thread. I did some searching over on PT.com since those are the guys most likely to have the latest and greatest installed already...

Although I like my 200-4R, one item in the "cons" column is that they can be a pita to calibrate for shift points (same can be said for the 700-R4). You have to get the right valve body inside the transmission (choose tranny from correct application), the TV cable has to be set right (not hard), and then you still may need to work on the governor to get it just right. BTW, I have no idea why 200's are -4R and 700's are -R4, but it just is...

To my understanding, the 4L60E's are are the same as the 700's but with electronics as stated previously in this thread. Setting the shift points throughout different throttle conditions is supposed to be much easier. The limiting factor for this transmission is that a built one is still supposedly good for 500ish HP only...although some say more. Something to consider is that unless you are hooked up on slicks, that rating is subject to interpretation. If you're not on slicks going to the strip every weekend, it might live just fine under your car.

The 4L80E is a monster truck transmission, that is long, heavy and has parasitic drag. From what I read over on the other site, the con's for this transmission are that it will require "modification" via a ball peen hammer to clear the trans tunnel (vicinity of the cooler lines). However you get the same "tuning" benefits of the 60E, which I think would be cool. I'd also bet that you'd be able to stick one in in stock for and it would live for a long while in your application before it needs rebuilt. One guy said he used a turbo 400 crossmember slid 2" back.

Although your motor isn't "breathing" until higher up the curve, ITS A BBC. It's making crazy torque down low already. You will have NO problem with lugging the engine down at 1800 RPMs is my guess in a locked-up overdrive...(I'd solicit some advice from some "real" experts before you spent money on any advice I offer up

)

T400's...cheap...durable...old school.

For me, I'd have to spreadsheet it out and figure all the costs to see where the decision would lie.

Scott

wiskeesour · Dec 29, 2006

well put 67famfun

mstehle · Dec 29, 2006

67FamFun:

Great post. In the Bowtie Overdrive site there is a link to a long article about setting the TV Cable correctly at W.O.T. to assure proper shift points. The article makes sense and can only assume they are correct. Thanks for the tip on working with the governor.

You mention getting the tranny for the correct application. Again Bowtie Overdrives is where I have done most of my research and they have four applications to choose from. My thoughts are that level 3 seems like it should work for what I want to do. That being said I want to be careful to not being biased before I make my decision.

Yes I believe the 4L60E is the same tranny as the 700-R4 except with the electronic control. This came out as the successor to the 700-R4 in 1993. I haven't spoken to any of the tranny builders about the 4L60E yet and will do that.

As to cost I don't think there will be more than about a $500 difference either way we go so that isn't a deal breaker. I would much rather spend an extra $500 up front and have what is going to have long term viability and reliability. And again, if we decide to go with an overdrive tranny it may be well worth the less wear and tear on the motor. Then I can put some serious miles on the car and not worry about it.

Thanks

Mark

700 R4 Tranny

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