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Discussion starter · #41 ·
On Keisler's web site they show the T56 with a new bell housing. I wonder if their bell housing is shorter than a standard GM unit? That would place the shifter closer to the original tranny tunnel opening. But on another link it says "All of our T56 6-speed units are custom engineered for direct bolt up to Muncie and Borg Warner T10 clutch bellhousings". I just might have to make another phone call and chat with them some more.
I've tried to figure out what Keisler is doing by looking at their website with no success at all. They bounce back and forth between TKO's (which, SFAIK, present no shifter hole issues for first generation F-bodys) and T56's (which do). The picture they have of the T56 in the "Perfct Fit" kit looks like it's using an Aftermarket T56 tail shaft housing. If that's the case, they need to make up about 3" to get the shifter dead center in the '68-'69 shifter hole, based on the 17.375" dimension given earlier in this thread. I'm not sure that can be done. I did note this comment in connection with the T56 "Perfect Fit" kit for first generation F-bodys: "Custom designed shifter tower and tailhousing modifications to fit your floor tunnel without cutting. If tunnel modifications are required, we offer templates and formed sheet metal for easy installation." It's either "perfect fit" or it's not.

I think if it was important to me not to cut my transmission tunnel, I'd want to see how they get the shifter to the correct position, or talk to a customer who installed one without cutting. The absence of any picture of the means by which they get the shifter to the correct location raises questions for me, as does their refusal to provide installation instructions on-line to protect "proprietary" information. Color me a skeptic. :confused:
 
On Keisler's web site they show the T56 with a new bell housing. I wonder if their bell housing is shorter than a standard GM unit? That would place the shifter closer to the original tranny tunnel opening. But on another link it says "All of our T56 6-speed units are custom engineered for direct bolt up to Muncie and Borg Warner T10 clutch bellhousings". I just might have to make another phone call and chat with them some more.
I talked to Keisler's again today. Their kit to fit the Camaro's existing shifter opening includes the bell housing and hydraulic shifter setup. Their kit that bolts to the GM bellhousing requires cutting a new shifter hole in the transmission tunnel. I guess it depends on how much you respect your original sheetmetal.

Also, he informed me that the 450 HP tranny with 2.87 first gear has the .80 & .62 O/D and the 650 HP tranny with 2.66 first gear has the .74 & .50 O/D gears. The "original fit" kit is the 650 HP tranny.
 
Check out this website- http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0405_tough_t56_transmission/index.html

This is a copy of the article that Chevy Hi-Performance ran several years back on the making a tougher T56 by Rockland Standard Gear (RS Gear). One of the small pic's showed a side view of a T56 with what appeared to have the shifter location slide all the way forward on tail housing. Upon enlarging, I found more pic's and one with a close up of the two different tail housing. Don't say what there for, but they do exist.
gman48
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Upon enlarging, I found more pic's and one with a close up of the two different tail housing. Don't say what there for, but they do exist.
If it's the picture of the two tail housings, side by side, the tailhousing with the shifter closer to the botton of the picture is a standard Viper tailhousing, which puts the center of the shifter 20" from the rear of the bellhousing.
 
So how about putting a T56 behind a pontiac block?

i would think that if they both take the same muncie, then the same T56 should work, right?

the only issue i cant get past is that the adapter plate is only listed for chevy sb
but i cant think of any reason why it would not be listed for a pontiac block or even a chevy big block
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
So how about putting a T56 behind a pontiac block?

i would think that if they both take the same muncie, then the same T56 should work, right?

the only issue i cant get past is that the adapter plate is only listed for chevy sb
but i cant think of any reason why it would not be listed for a pontiac block or even a chevy big block
I agree that it should work, with the one reservation that I'm not sure what the pilot bushing dimensions are for Pontiac engines. If they take "Chevy" pilot bushings, then the McLeod extended pilot bushings would work too.

To play it safe, you might want to call McLeod or ATS and pick their brains.
 
O.K. guys This is a very great thread with a lot of great information brought out by Mkelcy.
While I cannot divulge proprietary information on how we acheived the proper shift position I can assure you it is correct and does indeed fit WITH NO TUNNEL MODIFICATIONS needed. However(you all new that was coming :D ) you have to use a specific bell housing, crossmember, and shifter assembly(all provided). If you choose to use a factory GM bell then yes you will have to make some mods to your tunnel.
I have contacted two of our customers who recently did this swap with no cutting and I am having them send me more pictures. With their permission, I will post the pictures on here for you all to see that it is possible and has been done. Just so you all are aware, one of the customers had a Dynacorn(sp?) body which came with no hole in the tunnel for the shifter and had to cut a hole for the shifter but it is in the correct factory location. The tunnel in no way had to be modified for the Viper tranny to fit.
I will keep you posted. Keep the great information flowing.:thumbsup:

Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
While I cannot divulge proprietary information on how we acheived the proper shift position I can assure you it is correct and does indeed fit WITH NO TUNNEL MODIFICATIONS needed. However(you all new that was coming :D ) you have to use a specific bell housing, crossmember, and shifter assembly(all provided).
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering
Richard, thanks for posting.

There are obviously a lot of people doing one-off things with T56's and Keisler may be one of them. If we could see pictures and understand how you're doing a "perfect fit" T56, we could all say "that's really clever" and tell people it can be done with your kit.

As it is, without any explanation beyond "specific bellhousing," we're still pretty much left in the dark. A bellhousing that takes about 3"-4" of length out of the overall engine to shifter location, is one very special bellhousing that likely also requires a non-standard input shaft and a fairly interesting clutch setup. Pictures would be very helpful.

If you do post pictures, I'd really like to see images of an original first generation Camaro just so we can tell precisely what's being done to make it work, and that it does in fact work.

Again, I look forward to seeing what Keisler's doing.
 
Richard, thanks for posting.

There are obviously a lot of people doing one-off things with T56's and Keisler may be one of them. If we could see pictures and understand how you're doing a "perfect fit" T56, we could all say "that's really clever" and tell people it can be done with your kit.

As it is, without any explanation beyond "specific bellhousing," we're still pretty much left in the dark. A bellhousing that takes about 3"-4" of length out of the overall engine to shifter location, is one very special bellhousing that likely also requires a non-standard input shaft and a fairly interesting clutch setup. Pictures would be very helpful.

If you do post pictures, I'd really like to see images of an original first generation Camaro just so we can tell precisely what's being done to make it work, and that it does in fact work.

Again, I look forward to seeing what Keisler's doing.
Since I started reading this thread this morning, I was checking with the boss man to see what I could and couldn't divulge. We do use a "clutch housing" not a standard "bell housing", we also use a different input shaft than came standard in the Viper tranny. The "clutch housing" is considerably shallower(is that a word :D ) than a standard bellhousing(i.e. GM 621 etc....). The clutch and flywheel setup are standard.
I am currently waiting for some e-mails from the guys I contacted earlier as they are sending me more photos and yes, they have given me permission to post them. Since I have never posted any pics on this forum, I do not know if I am able to and ultimately, may contact you by PM and hopefully you could post them for me??? Please respond to my e-mail address below and I will send the attachments to you to post.
As I stated, I will keep you all informed and just so everyone knows, I am not in sales and I am not trying to make a sale here. I am in Tech Support and am trying to offer up clarification and advice.:thumbsup:

Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering
techsupport@keislerauto.com
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
As I stated, I will keep you all informed and just so everyone knows, I am not in sales and I am not trying to make a sale here. I am in Tech Support and am trying to offer up clarification and advice.:thumbsup:

Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering
There's nothing wrong with pointing out a uniquely desirable aspect of your product. This thread has shown there's a concern about having to cut up our first generation cars to fit a T56. If you guys are doing it without cutting, I'm guessing there's some interest.
 
There's nothing wrong with pointing out a uniquely desirable aspect of your product. This thread has shown there's a concern about having to cut up our first generation cars to fit a T56. If you guys are doing it without cutting, I'm guessing there's some interest.
When I first came to work for Keisler Engineering back in Jan. 2005, we were selling T-56 kits for the 1st gen Camaro along with kits for the C3 vette. Our supply of "Viper" trannys got used up and Tremec would only sell them to Dodge. They weren't available to the aftermarket anymore. We have since found a new supply and have "re-opened" the 1st gen kit. Back then, you didn't have to cut the tunnel either.
We understand everyones concern for the fittment and the need to make it work without cutting. That is our number 1 priority. We make every effort to offer a kit that requires no cutting. In some cases though, there is no way around it. That is not the case for a Viper tranny in a 1st gen Camaro. We have engineered and developed a kit that is absolutely a bolt in replacement with no modification necessary to the car in any way.
I just got off of the phone with both guys who are sending me pictures and they told me to look for them Friday or Monday at the outside. Once again, as soon as I receive them, I will post them so everyone can see.:thumbsup:

Richard
 
Wow! This thread just keeps getting better and I look forward to seeing the photos. I'll send a P/M to Richard to facilitate the posting of the photos, if he doesn't already have a volunteer.
 
I also work at Keisler Engineering. I will post the photos up when I recieve them from the customer. Just remember that most of the guys I talked to today with our 6 speed kit in the car they have there console in and carpet. I am talking with them to see if i can get a interior shot with the carpet and console removed.
 
Thanks for all the information and photos. You show photos of the tranny mounted in a '67 and it does seem to fit well. Is there enough adjustment to also fit the cut hole in a '68 and '69? I understand they are placed in a slightly different location than the '67.
My car wants one.
 
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