I'll make a long story short as possible. I had a VERY hard time getting the harmonic balancer off of my 396 awhile back. Now that Im going back together, getting it back on was tough too. I lightly honed the bore, lightly cleaned the crank with scothbrite, made sure the woodruff key had no nicks, and then I put a little heat on the balancer before trying to put it back on. Now comes the bad part. I had to use a 3 lb rawhide hammer to beat it far enough up on the crank to get the bolt in it to pull it the rest of the way up. After flogging the thing with the rawhide, THEN I thought I could have damaged something internally. I checked the thrust on the crank and I have .0035 mils. Now with the balancer pulled all the way up with the bolt, the crank pulley is closer to the block than the water pump pulley. They are the same parts that came off of the engine, nothing is new. Suggestions?? thanks, dumba$$ Kevin
How much damage have I done?
jus4funn68
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I'll make a long story short as possible. I had a VERY hard time getting the harmonic balancer off of my 396 awhile back. Now that Im going back together, getting it back on was tough too. I lightly honed the bore, lightly cleaned the crank with scothbrite, made sure the woodruff key had no nicks, and then I put a little heat on the balancer before trying to put it back on. Now comes the bad part. I had to use a 3 lb rawhide hammer to beat it far enough up on the crank to get the bolt in it to pull it the rest of the way up. After flogging the thing with the rawhide, THEN I thought I could have damaged something internally. I checked the thrust on the crank and I have .0035 mils. Now with the balancer pulled all the way up with the bolt, the crank pulley is closer to the block than the water pump pulley. They are the same parts that came off of the engine, nothing is new. Suggestions?? thanks, dumba$$ Kevin
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Might be time to check thrust bearing. Can you drop the pan? At least check end play before cranking it.
These original parts that are going back together. Were they forged/cast over seas? Has anyone at any time mic d the OD of the crank snout. The Chinese usually get them too small (on average 0.008" to 0.015" under) but they could have forgotten to finish the machining on this one.
An interference fit is one thing (0.004" usually) but that will not require Herculean efforts to install.
Larger Dave
These original parts that are going back together. Were they forged/cast over seas? Has anyone at any time mic d the OD of the crank snout. The Chinese usually get them too small (on average 0.008" to 0.015" under) but they could have forgotten to finish the machining on this one.
An interference fit is one thing (0.004" usually) but that will not require Herculean efforts to install.
Larger Dave
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There is no way in the world that your belts are misaligned from banging your balancer on with a rawhide hammer , however the correct , and only way to install a balancer is with a balancer installer. There has got to be something else causing the misalignment. Did you try to align them by useing a different groove on the crank pulley?
..i wasnt there to see your swing but....if your not on steroids....
then i dont think you hurt your engine with your 3lb hammer
using a bolt next time is a better idea..put your hammer away......
the mis-alignment can occur from improper water pump shaft location..
if the waterpump pulley is to far forward.you may tap on the water pump shaft a bit to position it inline.
verify that your impeller has no interference issues,with either the back plate or the housing.spin it ....does it spin free?
then if you need to..you can remove the back of the waterpump.tap the impeller on the shaft to the desired location.
its all easy stuff.....
then i dont think you hurt your engine with your 3lb hammer
using a bolt next time is a better idea..put your hammer away......
the mis-alignment can occur from improper water pump shaft location..
if the waterpump pulley is to far forward.you may tap on the water pump shaft a bit to position it inline.
verify that your impeller has no interference issues,with either the back plate or the housing.spin it ....does it spin free?
then if you need to..you can remove the back of the waterpump.tap the impeller on the shaft to the desired location.
its all easy stuff.....
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Thanks guys, Ill check all this out again tomorrow. Im just too tired to do anything else tonight. I'll give you an update. Kevin
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Where did you do this? {I checked the thrust on the crank and I have .0035 mils}
Thrust on crank? You mean thrust bearing? Pan is off? Are you measuring mils?
Do not hammer on balancer, do not tap on water pump pulley. Its possible , the balancer is on correctly now and all this time you had the incorrect water pump or was missing some pulley shims?
The comment on the balancer being closer to block now, makes me think you spreaded the end snout? I think you need to get the correct balancer puller and installer, take it off again and look to see what has happening. Do mic balancer snout and inside hub. Do add a little oil or antisieze compound to make it easier to R&R. When you make one final installation run, Replace the timing cover seal if you havent already.
Thrust on crank? You mean thrust bearing? Pan is off? Are you measuring mils?
Do not hammer on balancer, do not tap on water pump pulley. Its possible , the balancer is on correctly now and all this time you had the incorrect water pump or was missing some pulley shims?
The comment on the balancer being closer to block now, makes me think you spreaded the end snout? I think you need to get the correct balancer puller and installer, take it off again and look to see what has happening. Do mic balancer snout and inside hub. Do add a little oil or antisieze compound to make it easier to R&R. When you make one final installation run, Replace the timing cover seal if you havent already.
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Ok maybe I can clear up some of the terms I used. I measured the crank diameter OD and the balancer ID and they were very close. Nothing on the crank has been damaged where the balancer goes on. I work in a machine shop and "thousanth" of an inch is commonly refered to as "mils". But to be clear, the pan is on so I put an indicator on the crankshaft at the balancer and went to the flywheel flange and used a bar to thrust the crank forward and backward to measure how much the total travel or thrust was. The indicator measured .0035-.004 thousanths. Is it possible to push the balancer too far on the crank? I took the pulley off of the water pump to make sure nothing was holding it out too far. I checked the pulley numbers again and they are the correct ones. The pulley on the balancer lines up "edge to edge" at the rear but not "center to center" since the bottom pulley is not as big as the water pump pulley. Kevin
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The only way you might have hurt anything was when you heated the bal. If you got the rubber hot, but I figger you had enough sense to not get it over the 200° it is normally exposed to.
Only other way you hurt anything is if you beat on the OD or ID. Once again I figger you have more sense.
The interference fit on this itty bitty thing is going to be on the order of 1 or so mils. They just aren't that tight. The interference will be based on the coefficient of growth of .0000066/per inch/per °, at least to some extent or it ain't ever going on.
4-6 mils is what I'm accustomed to on monster drive hubs on 5 to 8 " crankshafts. We have to heat them right to 370°, on the virge of blue... and if they don't go brown you don't try. Brown bounces spit, you know that from the machine shop. And you get one chance to get it all the way on. Not a press in this world could force it on.
You don't need an installer. Just go get you an assortment of longer bolts, and working in a machine shop I figger you know the rule of thumb that you need a full diameter to have full strength on a fastener or you're gonna strip something. Those threads typically go into the crank way over an inch.
The bal can't go on too far. It butts up against the gear area shoulder on the crank. No way you beat it hard enought o mushroom it, and you'd suck the threads off the bolt before you tightened it that much I imagine but hey maybe not. It won't hurt to pull it if you don't like it.
I would stick a little wire or something into the keyway and make sure you didn't dislodge the key. That happens when you tap them on sometimes. It'll be in your pan.
I'm wondering if you replaced the water pump, or maybe have a bolt on pulley groove you forgot about in regards to your belt grooves being off.
Only other way you hurt anything is if you beat on the OD or ID. Once again I figger you have more sense.
The interference fit on this itty bitty thing is going to be on the order of 1 or so mils. They just aren't that tight. The interference will be based on the coefficient of growth of .0000066/per inch/per °, at least to some extent or it ain't ever going on.
4-6 mils is what I'm accustomed to on monster drive hubs on 5 to 8 " crankshafts. We have to heat them right to 370°, on the virge of blue... and if they don't go brown you don't try. Brown bounces spit, you know that from the machine shop. And you get one chance to get it all the way on. Not a press in this world could force it on.
You don't need an installer. Just go get you an assortment of longer bolts, and working in a machine shop I figger you know the rule of thumb that you need a full diameter to have full strength on a fastener or you're gonna strip something. Those threads typically go into the crank way over an inch.
The bal can't go on too far. It butts up against the gear area shoulder on the crank. No way you beat it hard enought o mushroom it, and you'd suck the threads off the bolt before you tightened it that much I imagine but hey maybe not. It won't hurt to pull it if you don't like it.
I would stick a little wire or something into the keyway and make sure you didn't dislodge the key. That happens when you tap them on sometimes. It'll be in your pan.
I'm wondering if you replaced the water pump, or maybe have a bolt on pulley groove you forgot about in regards to your belt grooves being off.
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Well , what can I add , when Tim gets thru with a subject like this, its all been said , one way or another.
I will add that if you do used long bolt to pull the balancer on, make sure the bolt is into the threads all the way and you have some type of bearing surface ( two good machined washers will work and some lube between) under the nut that your are turning , to pull balancer on. I dont think he meant to use the bolt and threads to pull balancer on.
As for the comment that the balancer appears now to be closer to block than before. I wonder if you are saying that you notice the RING is now closer and the comment of you heating the balancer, did not allow Ring to slip? If so, say good bye to the balancer as I would not trust it . Could come off later and do more damage like producing a new bump in the hood.
As for pulley alignment,, I would at least get the V's lined up. Thats what will center your belt.
And , Tim, where did you get that little o in that fashion for the degree mark? You must be using one of those NASA computer keyboards.
I will add that if you do used long bolt to pull the balancer on, make sure the bolt is into the threads all the way and you have some type of bearing surface ( two good machined washers will work and some lube between) under the nut that your are turning , to pull balancer on. I dont think he meant to use the bolt and threads to pull balancer on.
As for the comment that the balancer appears now to be closer to block than before. I wonder if you are saying that you notice the RING is now closer and the comment of you heating the balancer, did not allow Ring to slip? If so, say good bye to the balancer as I would not trust it . Could come off later and do more damage like producing a new bump in the hood.
As for pulley alignment,, I would at least get the V's lined up. Thats what will center your belt.
And , Tim, where did you get that little o in that fashion for the degree mark? You must be using one of those NASA computer keyboards.
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Tim you made the correct assumptions. I didn't heat the balancer very much at all, <200 degrees. I have assembled parts with as much as .020 interference. I could not have mushroomed the shoulder because I stopped using the hammer once the balancer was going on good and used the bolt to pull it up about the last 1/8" or so. I feel sure I didn't damage the balancer, I only hit the center with the rawhide and didn't beat on the outer ring. I just don't understand why the pulley in not in line. Same water pump, same pulleys, but the crank pump is in too far now. I can't say I looked at it when I took it off, but I can't believe that it was off this much all along. I read some past post about this and seen it was not a good idea to shim the crank pulley out. Did I leave something off, is there some sorta spacer between the pulley and the balancer? Kevin
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Yeah Kevin I think you left off a spacer or an entire bolt on groove. Or it never was right to begin with.
Unless this is an engine that uses a slinger...slinger...OLDS 350 is the last car engine I remember seeing with an oil slinger. Is this an Olds 396
? Big Block Chevy doesn't use a slinger does it? I can't remember, been over 3 years probly 4 since I had a BBC apart.
I know one thing Kevin and don't take this wrong but if it was mine and I didn't like it I'd strip the damthing in a heartbeat. Gimme an impact and I'd have the pump and balancer off in under 5 minutes before I'd be wondering if I had tore up my bal snout. 2 more minutes and the bal is back on if it's ok and I'm buying another waterpump or tearing the back cover off the old one or digging thru my junk for another pump to compare it to or all 3 then back together.
Don, hope I don't destroy your opinion of me but I do mean pull it on with a bolt. There's no difference in using the threads in the crank to pull the bal on ... versus holding it on ... versus using an allthread and nut to pull it on...there's so little work transpiring because the interference fit is minimal on that small diameter. It works fine, but you have to use a longer bolt so you get enough threads dividing the load. The OEM washer with a Cat heavy flat or an SAE flat does the task of providing a thrust face. 1/2" impact zing it's done , reverse it out and slap the short bolt to her. One of those deals where a lifetime of building stuff I know I'm not hurting anything, and it's fast. Or maybe I've got lucky and all of em I've done have been easy...naaahhh... wolfs balancer is an ATI and it was tighter than a nuns device... I had to change bolt lengths 3 times to keep myself satisfied on it.
If others want to use an installer I am cool with that, I just don't see it as necessary for me. I'll make a video next weekend if I don't have the Wolf back , cross your fingers for me I'd rather have the wolf and you guys can wait on my next how-to-video.
Don, the ° symbol is in a program called character map and it is in Windows already, always has been.
And I am into keyboard shortcuts cuz I find a mouse too slow. Learned about shortcuts from an Indian dude with fingernails 4" long on his pinkies... in Malaysia, that dude was fast, NEVER touched his mouse. I used to try to learn one a day but it got old and I really didn't give that much of a hoot.
The shortcut for ° is alt+0176. It takes some practice. I use it in emails at work a lot and I won't tell any of my companies engineers how to do it hehehehehe
Also Don...re-read Kevins#1 post, he is saying the bal groove is closer to the block than the pump groove. Not closer than it was. He is asking us if there is any way he could have made it go further than it was, and you answered him correct... by mushrooming the snout.
Also this just now popped into my skull... if the damthing wasn't on all the way before yes you could put it on further. That in addition to omitting an oil slinger.
Kevin I re-read your posts, you are saying the groove edges line up. That is how they are aligned in my business. I use a 6 foot level as a straightedge, or a laser sometimes. If the edge is aligned the center is irrelevant, belt doesn't ride on the bottom...it grabs the sides. We need pictures.
Unless this is an engine that uses a slinger...slinger...OLDS 350 is the last car engine I remember seeing with an oil slinger. Is this an Olds 396
? Big Block Chevy doesn't use a slinger does it? I can't remember, been over 3 years probly 4 since I had a BBC apart.I know one thing Kevin and don't take this wrong but if it was mine and I didn't like it I'd strip the damthing in a heartbeat. Gimme an impact and I'd have the pump and balancer off in under 5 minutes before I'd be wondering if I had tore up my bal snout. 2 more minutes and the bal is back on if it's ok and I'm buying another waterpump or tearing the back cover off the old one or digging thru my junk for another pump to compare it to or all 3 then back together.
Don, hope I don't destroy your opinion of me but I do mean pull it on with a bolt. There's no difference in using the threads in the crank to pull the bal on ... versus holding it on ... versus using an allthread and nut to pull it on...there's so little work transpiring because the interference fit is minimal on that small diameter. It works fine, but you have to use a longer bolt so you get enough threads dividing the load. The OEM washer with a Cat heavy flat or an SAE flat does the task of providing a thrust face. 1/2" impact zing it's done , reverse it out and slap the short bolt to her. One of those deals where a lifetime of building stuff I know I'm not hurting anything, and it's fast. Or maybe I've got lucky and all of em I've done have been easy...naaahhh... wolfs balancer is an ATI and it was tighter than a nuns device... I had to change bolt lengths 3 times to keep myself satisfied on it.
If others want to use an installer I am cool with that, I just don't see it as necessary for me. I'll make a video next weekend if I don't have the Wolf back , cross your fingers for me I'd rather have the wolf and you guys can wait on my next how-to-video
.Don, the ° symbol is in a program called character map and it is in Windows already, always has been.
And I am into keyboard shortcuts cuz I find a mouse too slow. Learned about shortcuts from an Indian dude with fingernails 4" long on his pinkies... in Malaysia, that dude was fast, NEVER touched his mouse. I used to try to learn one a day but it got old and I really didn't give that much of a hoot.
The shortcut for ° is alt+0176. It takes some practice. I use it in emails at work a lot and I won't tell any of my companies engineers how to do it hehehehehe
Also Don...re-read Kevins#1 post, he is saying the bal groove is closer to the block than the pump groove. Not closer than it was. He is asking us if there is any way he could have made it go further than it was, and you answered him correct... by mushrooming the snout.
Also this just now popped into my skull... if the damthing wasn't on all the way before yes you could put it on further. That in addition to omitting an oil slinger.
Kevin I re-read your posts, you are saying the groove edges line up. That is how they are aligned in my business. I use a 6 foot level as a straightedge, or a laser sometimes. If the edge is aligned the center is irrelevant, belt doesn't ride on the bottom...it grabs the sides. We need pictures.
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Since Im second guessing myself, I have taken the balancer back off and both pulleys. I never did take the timing gear off of the crank by the way. When I was trying to "hammer" the balancer on, I only did that until I could get the bolt most of the way in and then pulled it up so I should not have done anything wrong. The water pump can't go back any further because the bolts on the back of the pump are touching the timing cover. If the back edge of the pulley is suppose to be lined up and not the center of the groove then I had it right. I will take some pics tomorrow. Im going to sit in my recliner, have a cool Mic light and think about how many mistakes Ive made on this car already. :beers: thanks for the help, Kevin
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As for the balancer on with a bolt, I have done it, but I have a new Bluepoint installer.
quote]
ahh, a new toy. If you're like me you have to make yourself use it or you forget you own it. I was gonna buy one at a pawn shop once but figgered I would forget I had it and automatically get my long bolts
btw the alt0176 for the ° symbol... you have to use the number pad on a regular keyboard . A laptop keyboard won't do it and the #'s above the letters won't do it on a regular...just says donk donk donk instead of putting a ° .
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AutoZone will rent you a balancer installer for free. Don't use that bolt, I've seen way too many of 'em stripped. It's meant to hold the balancer all the way on, not to pull it onto the crank.
Second, keep Scotch-Brite as far from you engine as you can. Those little abraisive bb's get into your engine and cause a world of grief. They're nearly impossible to get out and they're not magnetic.
If it fit once, the interference didn't change, it should have fit when you tried the second time. Load the shortblock into your truck and take it to a shop that can mic it and let you know what's going on.
Second, keep Scotch-Brite as far from you engine as you can. Those little abraisive bb's get into your engine and cause a world of grief. They're nearly impossible to get out and they're not magnetic.
If it fit once, the interference didn't change, it should have fit when you tried the second time. Load the shortblock into your truck and take it to a shop that can mic it and let you know what's going on.
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Thanks for the advice Gary. I was VERY careful not to introduce any abrasives into the engine. There is no need to take the engine to anyone to measure anything though. I am a machinist/welder/inspector for a electric utility. I own 0-6 OD mics 1-12 ID mics, dial calipers, dial indicators, telescoping gauges, etc. The balancer came back off easy like it should have the first time and I measured the crank snout and the balancer bore. It measured .0006 interference which is close to what I think is right. As for the pulley location, either the balancer was not all the way on last time it was installed(15+years ago) or it has out of alignment all along. I am making an install kit before I put it back on. No more hammering or pulling with the bolt! :thumbsup: Kevin
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I had a high ° of faith in ya Don. Don't tell your engineers how to do it. Just tell em it's on your keyboard.
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ahh, that explains the .020 interferences you spoke of. I figgered either typo or this lad has huge stuff come thru his machine shop. Your doing armatures and turbine hubs and such eh?
.020 would snap/crack anything I deal with.
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