Team Camaro Tech banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

RockinRob

· Gold Lifetime Member
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
Guys,

I'm getting myself confused, what do you all think of the TKO500 and a 2.73 rear?

I'm looking for off the line performance, don't really anticipate alot of 70mph driving. Will be mainly used on weekends cruizing backroads.

engine setup is probably going to be 350ci/330HP GMPP crate.

What should i be looking for when i'm trying to figure this stuff out? What RPM are you guys shifting at? and is it better to go with the TKO600?

500 gears are: 3.27, 1.98, 1.34, 1, .68
600 gears are: 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1, .64

i'm worried i could be burning up the clutch trying to get the car to move from a dead stop, but i'm just not sure i understand the ratios and such
Rob
 
It'll be fine. You can change the rear gear later. My problem with the 500 is the 1/2 drop is BIG.
I survived a few years with a 2.73 and a 2.2 (1st) M22 Muncie. Talk about tall gears in first!
 
The difference in the overdrives is not enough to worry about.

The 500 will give you 8.92:1 overall in first.
The 600 gives you 7.8:1.

If you compare this to a couple of "standard" 4 speed configurations:

M20 w/3.08 7.76
M20 w/ 3.55 8.94
M21 w/ 3.73 8.2
M21 w/4.11 9.02

I would lean toward the TKO500 with your 2.73 gears. I'd also build a "torquer" motor with a wide powerband to match it.
 
After installing a tko 600 behind a 480+ hp 406sb that had 2.73's I had to wait about 2 weeks before switching over to 3.55's. Had no problem with taking off but 5th was not needed until around 70-75. With the 3.55's it is much better -closer to 60.
 
as for the 1-2 spread, it's big but not as big as it looks. At redline, it's not quite 1500 rpm.

The math looks like this:
TKO500 / 3.08 gear
1st = 10.07:1 2nd = 6.09:1
M20 / 3.90 gear
1st = 9.82:1 2nd = 7.3:1

So the difference in the 1-2 shift is about .5:1 overall

It's still one of those "science" discussions. Most real world hipo combos will be best with the TKO600 coupled with a 3.55 or 3.73 gear.

Cruisers and torque motors with 3.08 or taller gears will get off the line in style with the 500.
 
After installing a tko 600 behind a 480+ hp 406sb that had 2.73's I had to wait about 2 weeks before switching over to 3.55's. Had no problem with taking off but 5th was not needed until around 70-75. With the 3.55's it is much better -closer to 60.
hehe, that's exactly what I mean. My 383 has no trouble pulling 5th from forty, but it's 150 hp down from yours, and probably has 100 ft lbs more at 2k.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
JimM, you have 3.08 rear gear don't you?

i think i'm going to go with the tko500, and look into a 383 stroker as an option.

thanks for all the help guys.
Rob
 
Well, how attatched are you to the 2.73 gears and what are your long-term engine plans? If you're planning on staying with the 350/330 it'll have good low end torque and a decent powerband, so the RPM drop from 1-2 shouldn't hurt you much, but the low RPM at cruising speed may be a bit odd. With a 26" tall tire, the TKO500 will put you around 1750 RPM at 70mph and the TKO600 will put you at around 1650 RPM. That's pretty low. If you downshift into 4th at that speed, you end up at ~2550 RPM on either. 3rd puts you at 3450 and 3300 respectively. To me, that means you're gonna be going from 5th to 3rd on either trans if you really want to accel on the highway. Probably an OK fuel economy tradeoff if you're going to do a lot of highway driving.

FWIW, I currently have 2.73's and just moved from a Super T10 with a 3.42 1st gear (9.3 overall 1st gear ratio) to the TKO600. I kept playing with the numbers and basically concluded that I was willing to lose a bit of accelleration in 1st gear (for now) with the TKO600 in exchange for a better ratio spacing. I figured the TKO500 would have been good for now with a better launch (8.9 overall 1st gear versus 7.8 for the TKO600), but 5th would be too low with the 2.73 rear (even with Michigan 70+ highway speeds) and I'd want to change them out anyway. So I figured if I'm gonna end up doing rear gears eventually anyway, the TKO600 has better spacing. Still haven't got everything together yet, so I can't comment on how it feels with my lowly 307 H.O. and 2.73 rear.

Eventually, I'll have 3.42 rear gears, which will put me at 2050 RPM at 70mph (still pretty low) and gives me a nice 9.8 overall ratio in 1st gear. Wth those gears, 4th gear at 70 gets you to 3200 RPM, which is in the meat of my powerband for passing. Until then, I'll have an internally shifted 4-speed with an "extra" gear that I rarely use.

Other (possible) concerns with the TKO500:
-- bigger RPM drop between 1st and 2nd (if you shift at 6k, the 500 puts you at ~3600 RPM in 2nd and the 600 puts you at 3900. Depending on the powerband of you motor, this may or may not matter)
-- wider gear spacing will tend to make it harder to shift "fast" on the 1-2 shift with the TKO500 (need to change input shaft speed by a greater amount; syncros need to work harder. Not sure if this would be enough to notice or not.)
-- higher torque capacity on the TKO600 (I doubt I'll ever end up with more than 500 ft-lbs, so not an issue for me)

Personally, based on your intended use (backroad cruizing, off-the-line performance, not much 70+ highway), I'd consider changing rear gears at some point regardless of which trans you end up with, otherwise you'll have a 5th gear you will probably rarely use. That said, either trans should be fine launching for now with the 2.73's (wouldn't worry about burning the clutch as long as you don't start towing trailers). I think the TKO600 with a 3.42/3.55/3.73 rear is the best overall compromise for you. If you don't want to drop the $ on the rear just yet, the TKO600 with the 2.73's will do you fine for now.
 
JimM, you have 3.08 rear gear don't you?

i think i'm going to go with the tko500, and look into a 383 stroker as an option.

thanks for all the help guys.
Rob
Yes, I have a 3.08 with with a TKO500. First is 10:1 5th is 2:1!

For my current combo, the transmission and gearingis perfect, tho my 383 is seriously lacking in the breathing dept. I wush I was on my own pc, I'd post the dyno sheet. Peak HP @ 5200, but there is 350 ft-lbs of torque on tap just above idle.

This is a pretty unusual combo for a hot rod. This winter I'll be stepping it up a bit, hopefully enough to get her DEEP into the thirteens. Best she can do now is 14 flat @ 99. Kinda disappointing, tho she's a joy to drive on the street. I hope I make the right choices, I wanna have my cake and eat it too.
 
I have a 454 and the TKO600 with .64 OD and 3.31 rear/28" tire, and I can tell you that 5th just really isnt good till I get up to about 70. 75-80 is real sweet I must say. I'm changing to 3.90 as we speak.

I think that any .6x OD is too much w/a 2.73 rear. 5th will not be useable. Your 2.73 rear will be the equiv to a 1.85 rear in OD...no good IMO.

Your rear gears are the problem. You state that your not gonna do much highway right? How about getting a 4+1 Richmond? They have extra low 1,2,3,4 gears and a 1:1 5th, so you will basically keep the 2.73 rears, which are good for your motor, and you wont use 5th anyway. Cheaper, and goes in a little easier than the TKO.
 
Just to add one more thought, you guys all forgot the TKO 600 RR, with the same ratios 1-4 but a 0.82 OD. I have that in my 396 with 3.42 rear, and it's plenty of oomph even in 5th. I'm actually considering going back to a 3.08 or so.
 
jeez...what do you guys have for cams?
My lil ole 383 will pass on a 2 lane from 1500 rpm in high gear!
I actually can get into 5th as low as 60, which puts me just over 1500 rpms, but it just doesnt like it. No bucking or anything like that. On level ground on the highway, 60-65 can be done. Its just SWEET at 70-80mph. Smaller rear tires would definitley help. But hey, with 3.90's my rear gear will effectively change to 2.49's in 5th




Just to add one more thought, you guys all forgot the TKO 600 RR, with the same ratios 1-4 but a 0.82 OD. I have that in my 396 with 3.42 rear, and it's plenty of oomph even in 5th. I'm actually considering going back to a 3.08 or so.
Yea but the 2.87 1st will kill him with that 2.73 rear. I dont see any good options other than changing the rear out or going with the 4+1.

Your guys thoughts?
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
man you guys are sending my brain into a frienzy. i get more and more confused every chance i get to think about this.

keep the opinions coming please!
Rob
 
Both the tko500 and the TKO600 will give you a "better" first gear than you have, or would have with any muncie trans, T350, or PG.

Overall first gear ratios above 9:1 are serious tire smokers. Gears multiply torque, and it is straight math. Example: I can put out 350 ft-lbs of torque @ 2200 rpm, to the rear wheels (as measured on a chassis dyno in 4th gear). With my 10:1 overall in first, that = 3500 FT-LBS!!!

A more "normal" overall first would be 8 - 9:1, and you can get that with the TKO600's 2.87 first.

It's really a tossup. That 350-330 crate motor would surprise a lot of people off the line with a tko500, less so with a 600. Either way, 5th will be highway only, and with 2.73's out back, the more radical you cam your motor, the higher a highway speed you'll need for a comfortable cruise. It really doesn't matter much tho, at least around here, normal highway traffic moves at 75-80, and most any motor will comfortably pull high gear at that speed even with the 2.73's.

Fifth gear is for the highway. I don't even think about high gear till I'm moving at 55 plus, tho once I'm in high, I don't think about shifting down till I'm back below 40.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
thank JimM, that was a simple explanation that i could finally in my little peabrain understand.

I don't forsee alot of highway 65-70mph driving, and if i were doing it, it wouldn't be but for a short time and MPG is not a concern.

i think i am leaning toward this setup:
TKO500
GMPP 350/330HP
tires are 255/45/17 so 26.03" tall

i'm kind of wavering on the 350 vs. 383, but if i ever decided to go to the 383 i don't think it will hurt me. and a change of rear gear in the future (no time soon) is always a possibility.

thanks guys, i love this place.
Rob
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
thanks for the help guys.

i just got off the phone with Jeff at CC5S, very nice guy and i think him taking the time to call me after an email just sealed the deal for them.
i just need to allocate some funds to the camaro account now.

Rob
 
I have a TKO500 and absolutely love it. I have a solid roller 350 putting out around 450-500 HP and I shift it around 7200. With my 3.73 rear I run through first pretty darn fast and shifting over 7k puts me in a sweet spot for a longer pull in 2nd gear. Given the fact that you don't see much 65-70 mph driving and don't care about gas mileage I would go for at least a 3.55 and probably a 3.73. Either way you will love the 5 speed.
 
The TKO is a great trans and you'll love it. I went with the 600 and the .64 - glad that I did.

Eventually, you can change your rear gears to "fine tune" your setup.

Life is too short not to have it all!!!!
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts