Hello, I am new to the forums. I am picking up a 79 camaro with a 454/TH400 in it. The rear end, engine, and trans is all stock. I was wondering with a 3k budget if it's possible to put this car into 11 second quarters and still be able to drive it on the street. The 454 is originally from a truck. Thanks.
rebelboy194
Go to youtube and search "denmah" and go look at the fairmount videos. 80mmTurbo, 5.3L truck motor with ls9 cam, tune, 760rwhp, for under 3k. Everything is stock minus the cam and computer, and of course turbo. But the engine/internals are bone stock little 315hp 5.3L truck/moms burnban motor.
That cam and intake is toward the mild end of what I would like to see. You might be limited to low 12's with that combo. At the very least,port match the intake to whatever heads you use. As for which heads,the 781's are a looser unless you are talking about on an engine with domed pistons. Even if you milled the 781's .060" you wouldn't get 9:1 with true flat top or mini dish pistons(the most popular dished pistons for pickup truck 454s). I believe some of the peanut port heads have small chambers which would mean they are good for more compression,I have never used them because I always felt the ports were too small,but others are proving otherwise.
As for modifying heads,there are a few things to think about. When opening small valve(2.06" intakes) for larger valves you need to relieve the chamber around the valve or it will limit or even hurt flow. It also adds chamber volume,so you ned to mill the heads back to the correct spec. This is why back in the day a particular casting that was offered with both small and large valves would have a 96 or 100 cc chamber in the small valve version vs 107cc for a large valve.
How much work you have done is based on the condition of the heads and how reasonable the machine shop prices are. The price of a good 3 angle valve job has come down a bit since the popularity of Serdi type machines caught on in most rebuilder shops. They now cut all the angles in one shot vs the labor intensive old method of making 3 different cuts. Opening for larger valves doesn't usually cost much more then a regular seat cut,but remember about opening the chambers and blending the valve job into the bowl. If the guides are worn,I would be fine with thread in inserts on just about any heads. Some shops really push for doing the entire guide,and then will talk about how the exhaust guides go into water,and how it is so much work and so much money. I don't like the old slip in liners,but the thread in ones are fine. I don't like knurled guides. If you go for larger valves you will need new valves. I use inexpensive stainless rebuilder valves in all my street strip stuff. There are many sources for these valves,the one I have had luck with is a seller named Racersoutlet on Ebay. They sell Elgin valves,springs and retainers as very reasonable kits. There are plenty of sellers for these parts,thats just the one I always use.
I have 2 shops that I use to do heads. One shop I use for my stock and street/strip stuff does excellent work,they are very cheap on their prices,and will do things to my specs. They are limited on the scope of the type of trick work they can do,and don't really take on any work that involves serious resetting up of their equipment or is very timing consuming ect. The othr shop is a full race shop. They do everything,but my gripe is that everything is expensive. They swear that the Serdi setup isn't as accurate as the setup that they have,but their setup is much more labor intensive and cost much more for te job. They always replace ALL the guides on used heads,and just run up a huge tab on everything. I bought them the 461 camel hump heads that I have on my street car along with a bunch of the rebuilder quality parts and got beat over the head with a $700 machine shop bill,and that was using stock size valve springs,no screw in studs or any of that. So you need to get the prices up front. Spending over $800 including parts for parts and labor on stock heads with stock size valve springs is starting to get expensive.
As the vacuum secondary carb,they can work fine,you need to get the secondaries to open quickly,or it will cost you power. Many people worry that a double pumper will bog if its too big,but with a 2500+ stall,it wil never be an issue.
As for modifying heads,there are a few things to think about. When opening small valve(2.06" intakes) for larger valves you need to relieve the chamber around the valve or it will limit or even hurt flow. It also adds chamber volume,so you ned to mill the heads back to the correct spec. This is why back in the day a particular casting that was offered with both small and large valves would have a 96 or 100 cc chamber in the small valve version vs 107cc for a large valve.
How much work you have done is based on the condition of the heads and how reasonable the machine shop prices are. The price of a good 3 angle valve job has come down a bit since the popularity of Serdi type machines caught on in most rebuilder shops. They now cut all the angles in one shot vs the labor intensive old method of making 3 different cuts. Opening for larger valves doesn't usually cost much more then a regular seat cut,but remember about opening the chambers and blending the valve job into the bowl. If the guides are worn,I would be fine with thread in inserts on just about any heads. Some shops really push for doing the entire guide,and then will talk about how the exhaust guides go into water,and how it is so much work and so much money. I don't like the old slip in liners,but the thread in ones are fine. I don't like knurled guides. If you go for larger valves you will need new valves. I use inexpensive stainless rebuilder valves in all my street strip stuff. There are many sources for these valves,the one I have had luck with is a seller named Racersoutlet on Ebay. They sell Elgin valves,springs and retainers as very reasonable kits. There are plenty of sellers for these parts,thats just the one I always use.
I have 2 shops that I use to do heads. One shop I use for my stock and street/strip stuff does excellent work,they are very cheap on their prices,and will do things to my specs. They are limited on the scope of the type of trick work they can do,and don't really take on any work that involves serious resetting up of their equipment or is very timing consuming ect. The othr shop is a full race shop. They do everything,but my gripe is that everything is expensive. They swear that the Serdi setup isn't as accurate as the setup that they have,but their setup is much more labor intensive and cost much more for te job. They always replace ALL the guides on used heads,and just run up a huge tab on everything. I bought them the 461 camel hump heads that I have on my street car along with a bunch of the rebuilder quality parts and got beat over the head with a $700 machine shop bill,and that was using stock size valve springs,no screw in studs or any of that. So you need to get the prices up front. Spending over $800 including parts for parts and labor on stock heads with stock size valve springs is starting to get expensive.
As the vacuum secondary carb,they can work fine,you need to get the secondaries to open quickly,or it will cost you power. Many people worry that a double pumper will bog if its too big,but with a 2500+ stall,it wil never be an issue.
Very easy. I have a 350 that does it easily.
Starting at the back.
10.5 x 28" slicks 4.10 rear gears. Spool, 30 or 33 slpline in the 8.5" 10 bolt you already have. C-clip eliminators and billet axles for strip only. street use, a POSI and new axles and C-clip eliminators, OR Ford axle ends with GM backing plate bolt pattern.
Slapper bars. 2" square tubing 0.156" thick welded to your spring plates and the snubbers hitting the spring eye. trim the snubbers for 1/2"-1" clearance.Subframe connectors, 6 point roll bar and 5 point safety harness.
350TH or 400TH or PG trans All will work well if built right. the 350 is quickest, the PG has more bullet proof aftermarket parts. 400 and PG have transbrakes, maybe the 350 does too.
I footbrake a 350TH with a manual Valvebody. It has been reliable and untouch since it was built.
9.5-10" converter, 3500-4000 stall Name brand only. A rebuilt Vega can stall like that yet cost you 1/2-3/4 of a second.
Normal pattern Manual Valve body trans makes life simple.
454. 049 heads, 10-11.5:1 compression 2" headers 234-240* dur cam whatever lift. HYD Roller is best, but a HYD cam wiill get the results you want.
750-850 DP, Intake, Headers etc
Manual brakes
Manual steering for a strip car.
Keep the PS and maybe the PB on the street.
You should hit 10's actually.
Starting at the back.
10.5 x 28" slicks 4.10 rear gears. Spool, 30 or 33 slpline in the 8.5" 10 bolt you already have. C-clip eliminators and billet axles for strip only. street use, a POSI and new axles and C-clip eliminators, OR Ford axle ends with GM backing plate bolt pattern.
Slapper bars. 2" square tubing 0.156" thick welded to your spring plates and the snubbers hitting the spring eye. trim the snubbers for 1/2"-1" clearance.Subframe connectors, 6 point roll bar and 5 point safety harness.
350TH or 400TH or PG trans All will work well if built right. the 350 is quickest, the PG has more bullet proof aftermarket parts. 400 and PG have transbrakes, maybe the 350 does too.
I footbrake a 350TH with a manual Valvebody. It has been reliable and untouch since it was built.
9.5-10" converter, 3500-4000 stall Name brand only. A rebuilt Vega can stall like that yet cost you 1/2-3/4 of a second.
Normal pattern Manual Valve body trans makes life simple.
454. 049 heads, 10-11.5:1 compression 2" headers 234-240* dur cam whatever lift. HYD Roller is best, but a HYD cam wiill get the results you want.
750-850 DP, Intake, Headers etc
Manual brakes
Manual steering for a strip car.
Keep the PS and maybe the PB on the street.
You should hit 10's actually.
So I was thinking of getting the car running for now, and buying some 10-10.5:1 compression over bore pistons, rings, and new bearings. Then when I get ready pull the motor and tear it down, then take it to the machine shop and have them do the over bore, new cam bearings and freeze plugs, and put the motor back together. Then I'll either throw a set of 781 heads on it with my intake and cam, or put 2.125 intake valves in the peanut port heads with a new valve job and port them and see what I come up with. How much does the block prep usually cost?
Mike go over to team chevelle and look up Vortecpro (Mark), he makes big power with peanut port heads. See if you can contact him, I know you want to do the heads yourself, but it might be worth sending them to him and let hi work them o'er or maybe he has a pair to exchange with you.
Get a decent cam, I would see what Mark suggests along with his heads.
That will be a sure fire way to run into the 11's for cheap.
Not all weld in frame connectors need to have the floor notched, but either way get frame connectors and weld them in.
As mentioned don't waste time with slapper bars and get a set of Caltrac bars from Calvert Racing, they are proven and when you go to the fastest street car type events, they are on probably 95% of he leaf spring cars.
Spend your money once and get your moneys worth. Good shock are another must, personally I like Afco's. These are the types of things that will allow you to go faster with less power. People get caught up on trying to make big power and it does them no good if they can't get the car to hook.
With your budget I think you can pull it off, but you have to get the best bang for the buck.
Get a decent cam, I would see what Mark suggests along with his heads.
That will be a sure fire way to run into the 11's for cheap.
Not all weld in frame connectors need to have the floor notched, but either way get frame connectors and weld them in.
As mentioned don't waste time with slapper bars and get a set of Caltrac bars from Calvert Racing, they are proven and when you go to the fastest street car type events, they are on probably 95% of he leaf spring cars.
Spend your money once and get your moneys worth. Good shock are another must, personally I like Afco's. These are the types of things that will allow you to go faster with less power. People get caught up on trying to make big power and it does them no good if they can't get the car to hook.
With your budget I think you can pull it off, but you have to get the best bang for the buck.
I'll be racing in eastern new mexico/west texas. I've been looking a little more into these peanut port heads and it seems the only real way to get any extra rpm/power is to put larger valves in them and port them. I'm willing to spend the time on them to port them, but don't know if I'm willing to spend the cash on putting larger valves in it when I can just drop 300 on a set of 781 heads and with the right valves/ person porting the heads get good flow from them and be able to run even faster one of these days with them.
I was wondering would it be worth it to put a set of 1:8 roller rockers on the peanut port heads and run this cam or will the heads stop making power before the cam and intake are out? If this is the case then I can either pick up the 781's for 300 or try to find some of the older closed chamber heads. Also can I get some casting numbers to look for when it comes to older closed chamber heads?
I understand making a matching combo, just looking for a rough estimate for the average amount of hp required to get the car to move fast enough for 11's. I appreciate Rich's help, I have a weiand stealth intake that is good from idle to 5800 rpms, I already have 2" primary long tube headers, and a 750 holley vacuum secondary. Are those all good substitutions to the intake and carb he mentioned? I am also looking at a Lunati Bare Bones hydraulic flat tappet cam with .527/.553 lift, 290/300 adv duration and 224/234 duration at .050 with a lobe separation of 112 and an intake center line of 107 with an RPM range of 1500-5500. Plus a 3500 stall converter. Lakewood traction bars, 90/10 front shocks, and 50/50 rear shocks.
How fast/quick it goes is more a function of the combination of the right parts than just buying parts. Rich gave you a decent combo to start with, where all the parts work together in the same RPM range where the car is going to utilize the power it makes. As far as how much power it takes to run 11s, I've seen guys go 12s with 600hp, and guys with 300hp and a perfectly matched combo run 11s. Vehicle weight, suspension, torque converter, and the engine combination being matched to the vehicle and application, are more critical than just the hp number. If you run too much gear and your car goes through the traps at 7000 rpm with a cam that only makes power to 5500 rpm.... You get the picture
Does anybody know about what power level you have to be at in order to turn 11's? I'm pushing for about 500hp, but I know I have to get the compression up to get there. Can I turn 11's on a good cam with my peanut port heads and my intake and carb setup with good exhaust if I can get her to stick and launch hard with the stall converter?
You dont need C-clip eliminators,or a roll bar to run 11's. You need a bar to go faster then 11.50,and C-clip eliminators to go faster then 10.99,and to be honest,with an automatic,and under 5000 stall,I doubt you will brake stock axles even running well into the 10's.
I have done some real strong low buck combos. It all depends on the condtion of what you have. If the 454 isnt tired,you can pic up some power on a budget by swapping on a set of closed chamber large oval heads from a 60's era bigblock. These heads are still fairly cheap,and usually easy to find on Ebay ect. I wouldnt spend big money or effort on them though. I would have them freshened with a good 3 angle valve job and back cut on the stock valves,fresh springs,and have them milled about .030" . This will get you over 9:1 with the engine you have(which is probably really about 7.5:1 right now). From there,go with a mild flat tappet hydraulic cam that will keep you under 6000 rpm. I have run the Isky 280 Mega cam in a few combos like this. You can run that cam with stock rockers,but a cheap set of 1.8:1 rollers like Harland Sharps is money well spent. From there,find an older single plane intake,I prefer to original design Torker(the one where the carb sits crooked),and port match it to the heads. This intake likes a 1" spacer if you have the room for it. Top it off with any double pumper you can find that 750 or large cfm,and make sure that whatever air cleaner you use as at least 1" over the top of the choke horn. Either mill the horn,or use a riser under the air cleaner and a hood scoop to get the room. You will need to track tune the carb,and might not get to your goal out of the box. A good performance HEI and low resistance wires like MSD wires is more then enough spark. Use a set of inexspensive heads,my choice is the Hooker regular competition headers for the 70-72 application. They fit 73 and later if you cut a small notch in the upper part of the 73 and later motor mounts. You will need good exhaust. Summit makes a low priced kit in 3" that they sell without mufflers,and you can then add better mufflers to that.
I would use solid body mounts,and bolt inframe connectors,then have the connectors welded to the front subframe and welded to the braces that they come close to under the floors. This is much different then real weld in connectors that require cutting a channel out of the floor and doing a lot of other work.
From there,you should run about a 3000 stall convertor,and the biggest RV/Towing trans cooler you can fit into the front of the car. A shift kit in the trans doesnt really add any signifigant performance,it is just a personal preferance. With 28" tall sticky tires and slapper bars I would run 3.42's or 3.55's,while you could run 3.90's with 30" tall tires.
This is just a ball park on what you need to get a 3600# car into the basement 12's high 11's depending on the altitude and how fresh your parts are.
I have done some real strong low buck combos. It all depends on the condtion of what you have. If the 454 isnt tired,you can pic up some power on a budget by swapping on a set of closed chamber large oval heads from a 60's era bigblock. These heads are still fairly cheap,and usually easy to find on Ebay ect. I wouldnt spend big money or effort on them though. I would have them freshened with a good 3 angle valve job and back cut on the stock valves,fresh springs,and have them milled about .030" . This will get you over 9:1 with the engine you have(which is probably really about 7.5:1 right now). From there,go with a mild flat tappet hydraulic cam that will keep you under 6000 rpm. I have run the Isky 280 Mega cam in a few combos like this. You can run that cam with stock rockers,but a cheap set of 1.8:1 rollers like Harland Sharps is money well spent. From there,find an older single plane intake,I prefer to original design Torker(the one where the carb sits crooked),and port match it to the heads. This intake likes a 1" spacer if you have the room for it. Top it off with any double pumper you can find that 750 or large cfm,and make sure that whatever air cleaner you use as at least 1" over the top of the choke horn. Either mill the horn,or use a riser under the air cleaner and a hood scoop to get the room. You will need to track tune the carb,and might not get to your goal out of the box. A good performance HEI and low resistance wires like MSD wires is more then enough spark. Use a set of inexspensive heads,my choice is the Hooker regular competition headers for the 70-72 application. They fit 73 and later if you cut a small notch in the upper part of the 73 and later motor mounts. You will need good exhaust. Summit makes a low priced kit in 3" that they sell without mufflers,and you can then add better mufflers to that.
I would use solid body mounts,and bolt inframe connectors,then have the connectors welded to the front subframe and welded to the braces that they come close to under the floors. This is much different then real weld in connectors that require cutting a channel out of the floor and doing a lot of other work.
From there,you should run about a 3000 stall convertor,and the biggest RV/Towing trans cooler you can fit into the front of the car. A shift kit in the trans doesnt really add any signifigant performance,it is just a personal preferance. With 28" tall sticky tires and slapper bars I would run 3.42's or 3.55's,while you could run 3.90's with 30" tall tires.
This is just a ball park on what you need to get a 3600# car into the basement 12's high 11's depending on the altitude and how fresh your parts are.
You guys know Ed, eh? Man that guy has a hornets nest about his head always.
I met Ed in person at a big footbrake race last year, was a decent kind of guy during those 3 minutes. Got a very neat car I will say. He seems to need controversy.
The 781 heads for 300 bucks, as long as they have been checked and are good is not a bad deal. I have bought them cheaper, but as long as the seats don't need to be replaced and they are cracked 300 would work in my book.
Everett, Sean, and Royce have all given you good info that I can't improve upon. I think the 781's with a nice solid lifter flat tappet, safety improvements, good fuel and exhaust, can make enough power to get you in the 11's for 3K.
I met Ed in person at a big footbrake race last year, was a decent kind of guy during those 3 minutes. Got a very neat car I will say. He seems to need controversy.
The 781 heads for 300 bucks, as long as they have been checked and are good is not a bad deal. I have bought them cheaper, but as long as the seats don't need to be replaced and they are cracked 300 would work in my book.
Everett, Sean, and Royce have all given you good info that I can't improve upon. I think the 781's with a nice solid lifter flat tappet, safety improvements, good fuel and exhaust, can make enough power to get you in the 11's for 3K.
So I got the car yesterday, and it's definitely a 454 big block with a turbo 400 and a posi 8.5 ten bolt. The motor has stock cam stock peanut port heads casting 236 and a weiand stealth intake, and vacuum secondary holley carb. What would be the best thing to do? I can pick up a stock untouched set of 781 heads for 300 dollars. Should I? Thanks for all the help.
The function of the car is going to be an 11 second street car. I don't want to go deep 11's because I want to be able to race some sanctioned events without having to put cages and crazy stuff into it just yet. It's definitely not going to be a straight up race car for a while. In fact it will be my daily driver for a while.
I would figure out what function the car is going to do.
If street, build for torque. This work, force x distance, is the effort you feel when pegging your "Seat-Of-the-Pants meter."
If track, build for horsepower, aka, speed.
Torque is a measured quantity, horsepower is calculated from torque.
JMT's
If street, build for torque. This work, force x distance, is the effort you feel when pegging your "Seat-Of-the-Pants meter."
If track, build for horsepower, aka, speed.
Torque is a measured quantity, horsepower is calculated from torque.
JMT's
So I'm hoping that when I get the car home I'm going to have the 781 casting. Fingers crossed on that one. I was thinking if this is the case, then milling the heads and putting the bigger 2.19/1.88 valves in them with new valve job guides and seals. I can blend the bowls and do a real good port match on them. A decent cam, lifters, and springs with a new timing set. Here's my question, would it be better to mill the heads to get compression up, or go ahead and swap pistons? Or both?
Heads are definitely where the power is at, if the castings are not great for performance you can look for some of the older castings, I believe 049(?) big block heads are real good oval port heads.
I'm a small block guy, and the big blocks I have spent all my time on don't run factory stuff, there are tons of guys on here that know 'em though. When you get the car you'll just have to check everything out, who knows what you'll have.
I beat the living crap out of my stock 8.5 with a GM posi from a Caprice and a 3.73 gearset (I actually still have it come to think of it). Went 11.40s and 1.56 in the 60' behind my 406. Worked great actually, I just upgraged the posi and axles before a problem cropped up.
Some good info in here for you to get started anyway, it will be a fun car! :thumbsup:
I'm a small block guy, and the big blocks I have spent all my time on don't run factory stuff, there are tons of guys on here that know 'em though. When you get the car you'll just have to check everything out, who knows what you'll have.
I beat the living crap out of my stock 8.5 with a GM posi from a Caprice and a 3.73 gearset (I actually still have it come to think of it). Went 11.40s and 1.56 in the 60' behind my 406. Worked great actually, I just upgraged the posi and axles before a problem cropped up.
Some good info in here for you to get started anyway, it will be a fun car! :thumbsup:
A girdle, probably, not. But, one item I do to every rear axle is weld a plate from the top of the tube to the end of the spring perch width-wise, both front and rear.
The spring perch is only welded by the perch uprights(?), vertical sides on the outside of the perch. Not much support or strength. Also, check the tubes where the perches are welded for cracks, very common. Merely a suggestion, if you do weld the cracks, use 6310 rod.
Adding a plate trianglates the perch for strength and lengthens the lever. A triangle is the strongest shape. For every action, there is a reaction. Turn the reaction into forward motion.
Hopefully, the heads aren't truck castings as they will have small ports, peanut ports, they're called - best for creating torque - truck engine, remember?
The spring perch is only welded by the perch uprights(?), vertical sides on the outside of the perch. Not much support or strength. Also, check the tubes where the perches are welded for cracks, very common. Merely a suggestion, if you do weld the cracks, use 6310 rod.
Adding a plate trianglates the perch for strength and lengthens the lever. A triangle is the strongest shape. For every action, there is a reaction. Turn the reaction into forward motion.
Hopefully, the heads aren't truck castings as they will have small ports, peanut ports, they're called - best for creating torque - truck engine, remember?
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