It looks like trim tag didn’t upload correctly. Attached here.

 

The tag doesn't match the VIN, something has been swapped.

 

hmm, I figured it was probably in the ballpark. Get a photo of the hidden VIN on the cowl...

Welcome to Team Camaro, btw.

 

Thank you, both.

 

Hey folks, I’m new to the forum but not new to cars and Camaros in particular. I found what looks like my dream car, a 67 RS in great shape with blue exterior and blue deluxe interior, plus tach and gauges (it‘s a factory console car that had a 4-speed that was replaced with a TH350 and 350 motor in last 2 years). All interior/exterior color and option data on the trim tag match the car, other than the replacement transmission.

My initial concern arose when I noted that the VIN tag has generic pop rivets, not the correct rosette rivets. After seeing that, I noticed that the VIN production number is slightly out of range from what is expected from the trim tag build date of 12C (third week of Dec. 66). Online data suggests that the last six digits of VINs for a Los Angeles car built In December range from 122252 to 130165. The car I’m eyeing is 124377L”131825”, or 1,660 builds after the available data on December LA-built cars. That being said, the car has a title history going back to 2005, there are no accidents, liens, salvage, etc annotated to any of the titles, and the car was sold at Mecum in 2015 - not that it rules out any fraudulent activity in the past. I also saw this posted online:

Do not use the last VIN of any given month as an absolute set in stone number. It is very likely that some Camaros with a slightly lower number could have already been assembled or ones with a slightly higher number could still be in process being assembled.

I will ask the seller, a consignment and Classic car storage place with good reviews and a history on Bringatrailer.com, to get me a picture of the hidden VIN under the cowl plate.

My question for this group is how concerned would you be about the late VIN # for a car built right before Christmas, and any other red flags? They were building about 2,000 cars a week at LOS during this time and if the VIN is legit, this car is maybe 2 weeks max out of spec from the Fisher body build date. I’ve read all the chatter about it being illegal or not to remove VIN tags at all, or during a restoration, and don’t want to reopen that can of worms.
View attachment 308822 View attachment 308823
I’ve attached pics of the trim and VIN tags for anyone interested to review and comment on.

Thanks in advance for any insight or thoughts!

Good on you for doing your research before you buy! I would be cautious and verify the hidden VIN under the wiper cowl if possible. At the very least ensure you don’t buy a car that was reported as stolen. As stated above, it’s a mismatch, plus the drivetrain is long gone. So it’s just whatever the buyer is willing to pay. Is it local where you can put eyes on it?

 

Those VIN tag rivets aren't correct so I'm guessing the VIN has been swapped. Yes, by all means check the hidden VINs.

Ed

 

I have never noticed a VIN tag mounted that skewed relative to the line of the body at that point. Is being that crooked somewhat normal?

 

3d cad, yes that is common for the vertical alignment of the tag to be that skewed.

 

fairfax1000: the car is not local. I’m in AZ and the car is in FL. I did a title search and pulled a history going back nearly 20 years, plus there is no theft associated with that VIN - at least within the period of history of the car I was able to pull.

That being said, the seller videoconferenced with me and showed me every square inch of the car, undercarriage included. I also have many high resolution pictures of it. Everything looks awesome but the rivets and production number on that VIN tag. I do wonder if it’s possible that the final assembly of the car lagged two weeks behind the body assembly. I know it is typically reported as a 4 day lag, so maybe that’s unlikely.

 

Aren’t you looking at this backwards? To get a valid history, you would need a hidden VIN look up.

 

I did check my state’s requirements for registering an out of state vehicle. Since it has a clear title that matches the VIN it should be as easy as filling out the title and registration app and paying the fee. According to AZ MVD, no inspection should be required. Thanks for all the replies so far!

 

Simple answer. The VIN was possibly detached during a restoration and reattached. If the VIN tag matches the hidden s VINs and Tilly’s no problem.

If I were to buy this car I would buy a couple of the correct rivets and replace the non conforming.

May not be an issue now but who knows done the road. Many horror stories of issues that started with the wrong rivets.

 

Simple answer. The VIN was possibly detached during a restoration and reattached. If the VIN tag matches the hidden s VINs and Tilly’s no problem.

If I were to buy this car I would buy a couple of the correct rivets and replace the non conforming.

May not be an issue now but who knows done the road. Many horror stories of issues that started with the wrong rivets.

If the car is stolen, you replacing the rivets would make you an accessory to the crime. Wouldn't it? I have to question your access to the correct rivets. After all, that is why these rivets are a special design.

 

Roger. Read closely. I said IF the VIN tag and title match I would replace the rivets with the correct ones.
FYI the correct rosette rivets are available legally from a number of sources.

 

As we all know, determination of the CORRECT vin, would be hidden vin of the car in question. As it appears, the VIN tag has been replaced and the title could just be matching the replaced VIN tag, on the car.
I wonder why they use the special rivets if they are that easy to purchase.

Are VIN rosette rivits illegal to sell?

I have a friend that has a couple pairs of rosette rivits used for the VIN tags on GM cars and he has no use for them. He said he has had them for years as he use to restore and customize cars back in the 60's, 70's & 80's. He is older now and his health is failing, he would like to sell them...

www.camaros.net

 

Badmotorfinger3 it appears you've already made up your mind to purchase the car so why did you bother to post? As stated, the VIN doesn't match the date on the trim tag and since the trim tag doesn't appear to have been removed from the car and the VIN tag appears to have been, there's your red flag right there.

If you got high resolution pictures of every square inch of the car, then that would include the hidden VIN's so what do those show?

I do wonder if it’s possible that the final assembly of the car lagged two weeks behind the body assembly.

And no, that's not possible.

Ed

 

Ed, I have not made up my mind on purchasing. I hope to get a photo of the cowl VIN from seller on Monday and make a decision at that point. I had not seen the VIN tag by the time I had a video call to review car so didn’t think to try and zoom into the cowl area for the hidden VIN.

 

Just to let you know, we've had that car in the database since June of 1998 and yes, at that time it had the problem so the VIN was changed at some point before that.

Ed

 

Thanks, Ed. To confirm, you’re referring to VIN 124377L131825 in the database since 6/98, correct?

 

Yes, that's correct. It was on ebay back then by seller napoliclassic. It was also on MECUM in 2015.

Ed

 

Appreciate it. So what’s the most likely scenario with this car that would result in swapping a VIN tag during the car’s first ~30 years of existence? Theft? Total?

Everything that I’ve read says run, don’t walk, from a car with a swapped VIN. We’ll see what the hidden VIN reads but I’m assuming at this point it will be different than the VIN tag.

 

Could be a total back then. NOS body panels were easier to come by. I would want a picture of the hidden vin and the stampings on the rear qtrs in the trunk lid groove. Also the car may have started life as a six cyl and that bothered someone bad enough to swap. I believe if it were a recovered theft, it would have a state issued vin, not a vin from another camaro.
Either way I myself would pass , knowing what you do at this time. The current owner may be completely unaware of the vin situation but you are, and you will want to rest easy at night.

 

If the hidden doesn’t match the Tag run don’t walk. There is no good ending.

 

If the VIN tag has been replaced before 98, I’m thinking finding the hidden VIN will be a problem.

 

Have the seller take a few pictures of the hidden cowl VIN. Preferable with the grille removed. One up close and one farther away. The reason I say that is because we've seen cars where the hidden VINs have been replaced as well but usually, not all the time but usually, you can see the body work that's been done to graft the new hidden VIN in place of the original. And see if you can have him take pictures of both hidden VINs because a lot of time the one under the heater blower isn't replaced. He probably won't want to since you have to remove the heater box to see it, but ask anyway.

Ed

 

Where in FL?

 

Sarasota, FL.

 

Right. But the OP referred to the possibility of a totaled car and a vin swap. Just that I would want to rule that out.

 

I don’t know much about the details of originality but reading on here, CRG, BAT it doesn’t take long to know that anyone with a rare Camaro and knows it's original will offer pics of VIN and hidden VIN up front to increase confidence/value of what they are selling. Watching auctions where the seller didn't provide the info, acted like they didn't know about it, didn't get around to showing because it's too hard, etc...typically just raised more questions and didn't end well. Seems to me the red flag is having to ask to see the hidden VIN to prove it matches.