a 496 will save ya a few bucks compared to a 540, 572 or 632. The 496 displacement as you know can be found in modern day Chevy trucks. You are probably going to need to run 12.5:1 pistons, race gas, an advertised cam duration of no less than .280, probably .292 (what I've had in my old 1969 Camaro and this one) with some sizable lift on the cam as well. A great set of heads, the right carb and some other goodies are also critical. Check out Scott Shafiroff's website. Here are some specs on a 540 cu in BBC with 10.5:1 compression ratio pistons. Hopefully this link helps you out as far as specs on things http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/540_classic.asp

Good Luck!!

 

Here are a few combo's that should get you there: :thumbsup:
http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/bbcombo/ugb45.cgi

 

IMO you only need 650-700 HP to get your Firebird to your ET goals which makes the build a whole lot easier. Stroking it to a 496 would make the most sense to me if you are starting from scratch.

Good heads -- AFR 315CNC would be my choice and would support in excess of 700 HP.

Cam -- something right about .270* @ .050 would be enough for 700+ HP and would keep the RPMs within reason.

Talk to 40Coupe (Garret) he has a killer 468 combo that goes high 9's in his Camaro. Maybe he will share some suggestions.

JMO.

 

IMO you only need 650-700 HP to get your Firebird to your ET goals which makes the build a whole lot easier.

Talk to 40Coupe (Garret) he has a killer 468 combo that goes high 9's in his Camaro. Maybe he will share some suggestions.

JMO.

Yup, dont get cought up in all the insane hp claims!
it wont take anywhere near the power you think to run low 10s
even if your car is heavy.

 

You're getting awfully close to the absolute limits of a production block, stud the mains or install splayed caps if you have a 2-bolt block.
4.25" stroke, that's a no-brainer. Bore it just enough to clean up the bores, no need to go .060 over if .030 will do it. Cylinder wall thickness is your friend in production blocks.
You're going to have to spin it to 7K to get your numbers, I'd look at AFR 305cc heads with the CNC chamber option.
Solid roller, Isky Red Zones or Crower hi-po lifters, cam it according to where you want to shift and where you want the power curve.
Unless you're using a power adder to get your 800hp, it ain't gonna be streetable at all.
Hit the performance section at the Chevelles sister site, there are a lot of big block folks that hang out there.

 

At the power levels you are talking I'd probably look at an aftermarket block (Dart/Brodix). Unless the block you found is an older block (GenIV, not GenV or GenVI) with a higher nickle content, you are probably going to run into problems. The modern blocks won't have a thick enough cylinder wall to go .060 over, many of the production blocks only recommend 040 over max (which was the max on my GenV block). They usually have taken a lot of material off the main webs and cylinder walls to lighten the block, but for high HP applications can cause structural stability problems.

Make sure you check the Casting #, and see if your machinist can get you the AERA specs on the casting number and any technical bulletins. Should give you a good basis on what the OEM recommends to push the block. Also have the block sonic tested and find the minimum cylinder wall thickness. Keep it above 0.300 if you can for your HP level (probably be hard with a GenV or GenVI block, and 0.400 would be better).

I think it will be cheaper to go with a Dart block bore it out to 4.600 or so and go with a stroke around the same size and use displacement (~600CI) to get you into your wanted power-level. It would be more streetable, reliable and cheaper than trying to spin a 496 to 7k+. Your going to need a lot of valve-train upgrades to spin a 496 that fast reliably. Not saying you can't do it but it really depends on what you want your car to do.

 

First and most important question What is your Budget and how do you plan on using the car?

 

Everyone has good points. The best combo's I've seen with a Gen IV block are 496 and 522. The 496 is the most economical, ie: off the shelf parts. Your goal is easy enough to do with a 496 and some good compression.

 

Now that's thetype of input I was hoping for, THANKS A LOT FOLKS. So for some clarification. My smallblock Camaro will be the streetable car. This Firebird will be strip only car. I'm hoping to go 30 over (40 max but don't like to go that far if notneeded). Budget isnt top priority, because I'm the type of fool if something warrants the extra $, I will usually find a way to get it together or else hold off untill the $ come in. I'm thinking a budget in the range of 7500 to 10,000 (but our dollar fluctuates from 100 to 80 cents to the US dollar over night so timming is factor as well).

I will check into 40Coupe and the other sites. Thanks again.

 

Like Bob said, you can make a 468 work too, but it costs about the same to build a 496. There's more than one way to skin a cat, or so they say. Here's some links to a 496 buildup that I used as a guide for my project years ago. It worked out pretty good for me. Part 1 http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=1621090582
Part 2 http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-137079585

 

If you haven't already bought a block yet, might look into a new GM Bowtie 454 block, they are much beefier than the production blocks. If you get a good deal on a 2 bolt main used production block, might consider installing aftermarket performance 4 bolt mains with the outer bolts splayed (a machine shop can easily fit these).

AFR heads seem to be the top dog for flow right now. The AFR 305 that was recommended earlier is a good choice. If I was building a race motor, I'd get a solid roller cam and spend some coin in the valvetrain.

I've been looking into building a forged 496 myself. Check out Flatlander Racing and Ohio Crankshaft for forged stroker kits. Check out the 496 Super Kit listed below, pretty sweet (I'll probably settle for the 496 Street Rodder Kit).

http://www.ohiocrank.com/chevbb_rotate.html

 

I'd stay with a 4 inch stroke big bore.Just difficult to hook all that torque....
468 or 522 area....

A set of afr cnc 315 heads and good intake............... 2 inch tube headers,and a pro systems carb...

My 468 is pump gas and iron heads and a 750 carb at the time i ran last year was 11.44......Bad 60ft 1.61 with drag radials.Changed to new carb from pro systems and now my times are worst.LOL 60 ft of 1.7's all over the place ,now i have to actually spend money on suspension.So this year i'm pushing for the afr 315 cnc's and intakes.I think with the old system i could get into the high ten's......


Just ideas

 

Here is a combination for you: 4.25 crank, .250 long rod, Ross 86432 piston (13.9 compression). The AFR 305/315 heads are real good, but a little small for this combo. Brodix has done some new stuff which will outflow them. Look at the Brodix 3xtra O 332. If you go AFR use the 325's cnc ported to 335. Comp Cams 11-825-9 roller cam. Put steel main caps in the block, straight not splayed. BB's are stronger with straight caps instead of splayed due to the block design. Turn it 7000 and you are knocking on 800 HP range with good reliability. Low to mid nines possible if the car is light enough. I run 9's with a .100 over 427 with a stock block and steel caps, however I have to run alot more rpms to come even close to what the above combo would do.

 

Look up Ron498 too. His street 4.25 stroker is impressive, simple and has hit 9's.

 

You can kill some TQ with proper cam selection -- more cubes makes more HP almost always if you pick the right parts.

FWIW I would probably use a little less cam (like 260* ish) and a smaller 305 head if I were building a 468.

 

You can kill some TQ with proper cam selection -- more cubes makes more HP almost always if you pick the right parts.

FWIW I would probably use a little less cam (like 260* ish) and a smaller 305 head if I were building a 468.

Here is my opinion on your build up.If money is not a problem.
Don't waste on your money on the 496 build up.The block needs to be
clearanced on the bottom of the cylinder walls.Anything pass 500hp on the two bolt mains the mains start to vibrate! By the time you make it a 4 bolt main you are better off buying another motor for the same money.
If you decide to do it.
Been there done it.
The only way you are going to make that kind of power is with a procharger or a turbo!
I would put a 540i which has a 4.250 stroke.Gobs of torque and hp.
That 540 will put you in the hi tens in a camaro.I ran both combinations in my 69 camaro,the 496 and the 540 and 406 and 383. Then i would put the bottle on a 350shot on NOS! -AND YOU GOT 9'S brother.:hurray:This is one of the cheapest ways.
Weight is a big key factor here.
Drop the cars weight to 2900lbs and you got your self a mid 10sec car with a mild small block and 5.14 gear revving at 7500rpm.
I got customers who run that combination superstock all day!

Or even drop small block 4 bolt 406 with a procharger 16-20psi and make
power more than you will ever need.{This is another option}:beers:
A turbo will make 25% more power than a supercharger.

I have have built and tuned many combinations.
What ever you choose, good luck.:thumbsup:

 

Eric- How about mid-9's.

Mine's a VERY basic 468 combo making ~700 HP. I've spent far more time tuning/refining the suspension than most. I've seen plenty of combo's including 540's, etc. that can't get out of the 10's. There is soooooo much more to it than building HP. Honestly, you'd be really lucky to get into the 9's simply based on your converter selection. You'll need a converter that flashes in excess of 5500 RPM to get into the 9's with a 4" stroke. In fact, you're at least 1500 RPM low with the 4200 RPM unit you have now. I can tell you that already without knowing anything about your combo or what you plan to build in the future. I will also tell you that it's likely going to take a race gas combo to reach your goals with a 468. If you want to run pump gas than I like the idea of a 505 with AFR 305's or 315's on it. Ron's combo is a very stong running 4.25" stroke pump gas deal.

 

I agree with Garett. Converter, trans, rear gear, and suspension work. Combined with heads, cam, intake, carb and exh.
I'm way behind in that game as mine is a drive to the track deal. So I had to compromise. Then of course I changed it around to run the bottle. It hasen't seen a 10.0 all year, so I suspect the trans isn't working right.
Lot's of little things add up. The first 330 ft is where the diff is.
A lot of 496's run hard. A lot of 540's don't. I'm sure it's in the details.
BTW....mine said 700 on the dyno, I doubt I ever made that in the car. Probably cause I've been stubborn and run a full exh with 4 muffs.
BTW....thanks for the comments Garett. Always appreciated.
I wish the economy was better, I'd like to go through all my stuff over the winter. But the goal is to get the house paid off, hope I keep my job and lay a bit low.

Ron

 

Again, thanks for the many replys/opinions. Sorry I realize that fuel/air compressors in what ever form you use are the ticket to all out power but this one is going to be a naturally asperated motor and only motor (heck the small block ford folks are making 1400 to 2000 hp in their street legal stangs, just too much of a bomb waiting to happen for me to live with). In fact I'm pretty sure I'll be pulling the NOS off of my Camaro, just don't like the stuff and it seems like it's not a real motor anymore or it's cheating or something to me.
Pump gas isn't a priority, actually I hadn't planned on it to be, but of course if the power range I'm shooting for can be done on pump gas all the better I guess. And of course peak power numbers are all good and fine but I will certainly entertain a overall wide powerband (like I shot for with my small block) vs peak numbers. My converter (if I choose to use it, and Lenny from Ultimate Converter Concepts says it will stand up to the new motor) stalls at 4200 with my small block (motor only). I'm told that the more tq I can give it the better it will react. Supposed to stall at 5000 to 5200 with my small block plus 250 shot (406 +250 = 650hp), so I'm thinking that behind the new mill it should be in the ball park. For the record the firebird is completely gutted out so I will be caging it and pretty sure going with minitub kit and havn't decided on suspension yet. Like what I have read about Cal-Tracs if I leave the leaf springs in, but if going to start from scratch just may go with a link system of some sort. So a warning to you all, I will be soliciting your opinions on several aspects of this project. he he he.


Are you folks mostly running out of the box cams or submitting your specs and getting a custom grind? I guess where I'm going with this question is: in my opinion (for what it's worth) even though the heads are the limiting factor for the engines potential the cam is the brain behind the engine so does one design the engine around the cam or the cam around the engine? Or am I looking at this from the wrong perspective?

Thanks again for all your well noted and valuable input. You folks are the best!!

Cheers

 

Cam, heads, intake, carb and exhaust. They all have to match.
CalTracs with the 9" hoosier radials work great, when dialed in and the front end setup matches.

Here is a little video.......

Garett should post his as well.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Ron-doin-the-launch-thing_165140.htm

Ron (this is on the bottle btw)

 

I have a 582 ultrastreet engine from shafiroff its a 91oct motor and it runs a 10.59@129 in a 68 camaro 331 gears 3400 coan converter threw the exhaust. The motor is everything they told me it wood be and more. I run leafsprings in the rear with slidealinks and QA1 shocks, 275/60/15 mt dragradials. I was only able to run it two days a the track i don't have a bar yet! Hopfully next year i'll get to do some tuning on it.

 

i think your all up weight is going to have a lot to do with what the car will run no matter what motor you put in it....i have a buddy the was running a 67 camaro 3200# had a 12 bolt 4:56 with th400 and a .030 over 454, 13.1 with gm aluminum heads and a 652 lift roller...i think a comp cams one. on gas he was low 10's in the summer and was getting into the 9:90's in the cooler air....he put it on alcohol and was in the mid 9.'s consistantly..........he put that same motor in his 2800# vega with a power glide and ran 9.0's. that motor was undestructable....he ran it 4 seasons with no problems and then only changed the valve springs.

 

Please listen to Garret and also hunt up Ed, (i.e., racer1320), here to make a 454+ scream!

I am just an arm-chair hot rod guy so have NEVER been on a real strip, but the easy way to do this is w/ more cubes like from a mild 496 and then like Garret and Ed will tell you, to DIAL in your ride so that you can use all the motor put's out!

Right Garret.

And he's chewed on me a couple a times b/c I'm a "mag. worm" sorta deal fine.

Before I die, my 496 will see 10.5!

pdq67

 

Thanks for the props Paul. You'll get to the strip one of these days!

 

"Very Basic" is kind of misleading Garret LOL

When you put the time into science-ing out a combo and learning what works and what doesn't the end result may appear "very basic" but the amount of time and effort put into getting there is far from very basic . . . I know first hand that even after the engine is sorted out the suspension and converter needs to be right or you'll be spinning your wheels.

That is why you see some guys like Garret, Ron, and Bob West with cars that over-perform "for what they are" and some guys that under-perform. Of course sometimes I think drag racers like to sand bag a little too . . . "yeah it's just a GM block with a cast crank" (yeah right)

 

What was Ed doing when he quit the boards?

10.5 or lower in his porky '68 red Chevelle H/T?

And wasn't it w/ just a highly worked over pair of old -215 heads among other things...

Alf W. rear set-up??

pdq67

 

Take everyone's advice for what it's worth. I did a lot of homework on my setup, and talked to lots of people, and got lot's of different answers like you're getting. Talk to people with similar combos that work. I bought my heads first with a goal in mind, and did what I needed to make it work. I also had a custom grind cam that I bought through Fast Times Motorworks to take advantage of what I had. It's difficult to find a top engine builder who is willing to help without selling you lots of marked up parts, but Jeff D'Agostino bent over backwards to work with me. He guided me in the right direction after getting overwhelmed by so many suggestions. Try not to deviate from the main goal and you should do alright.

 

Well put :beers:

I think I missed his main goal though...... Does he want to build a bracket car or does he want to build a go fast fun car.

Two totally different combinations for sure.


JMO....of course.



bob

 

I guess I may have confused the issue by mentioning my street camaro. This engine will be for my Strip Only car ('68 Firebird). It's starting off with a 454 block, I'm looking for tried and true combos (as well as opinions). I'm looking at 750 to 800 hp range. Not particularly looking at a high rpm but more of a tq monster and hoping to keep it between 7000 to 7500rpm. Pump gas is not a priority. Not really wanting to punch it out more then 30 or 40 thousand. Stroking isn't a concern (other then how much clearancing is needed) I assume H-beam rods might take more then I-beam rods, of course it would depend on the rod cap design. Like I said earlier peak numbers, are not the real goal, but rather a good wide power band that gets in that range would be the ticket.

The car is completely bare as we speak (type) and has a 12 bolt rearend in it with a set of traction bars (look like Comp. Eng.) installed and a set of frame connectors (again look like Comp. Eng.) laying in the trunk. I plan on putting in a cage (which make ????) and a mini-tub kit (probably Detroit Speed kit). Speaking of cages I assume the weld in kits are supperior to the bolt together kits - opinions welcome here also. The gears in it now are 3.23's so they are on the list to changed as well with a good carrier. I have (out of my Camaro) a full manual T400 reverse body with a brake that will be going in.

I need a good glass (prob 5 or 6 "cowl) hood and front windshield. Anda few other goodies that will all come in good time.

The info and comments you folks have put forth are extremly well recieved and appreciated. I'm completely knew and very uninformed on big blocks so this is very interesting and a real learning curve. Thanks again and again!

Cheers!

 

I guess I may have confused the issue by mentioning my street camaro. This engine will be for my Strip Only car ('68 Firebird). It's starting off with a 454 block, I'm looking for tried and true combos (as well as opinions). I'm looking at 750 to 800 hp range. Not particularly looking at a high rpm but more of a tq monster and hoping to keep it between 7000 to 7500rpm. Pump gas is not a priority.
Cheers!

One more question..................... Is this a go fast have fun with strip car......... Or a BRACKET CAR. If you choose to go bracket or even index racing you will probably leave some performance behind for the sake of consistency, thus a totally different approach is needed.

Building a TQ monster isnt a good idea if you choose to go bracket racing either. I dont care how good the car is set up, Traction is the limiting factor in building a good combo .... and I dont mean traction 75% of the time.


JMO of course, and I'm sure others will argue my opinion :boxing:


Good luck.......



bob

 

You have mail

Ron Miller 92Camaro :beers: