Seems like from what i've read, there is a possibility that some SS's were built with X44 coded trim tags ?
Anyone seen one ?
Anyone seen one ?
ss350camaro
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X44 = Base Camaro.
However from what I have been told, depending on what an individual wanted to order for an X44 car it could have been optioned out close to an SS small block (350 engine, dual exhaust and some other stuff). I have found though that even then the X44 would have front drums and a P/G trans. And the 350 was the 255 HP 350 not the 300 HP or greater. All the SS Camaro's in 1969 had disc brakes & I can't recall any SS Camaro's with a P/G trans. I believe they were either THM 350, THM 400 or Muncie 4 speed.
I'm not sure if an early built X44 would have received a 327 as a base engine. From what I have read for cars with tags of 01A & later the 307 was the base engine. Nothing wrong with an X44. Don't let the collectors get you down. I'd rather have a nice X44 then some roached out rusted to the max hunk of junk X11 with no engine, no trans, no interior, no glass that I paid $14 grand for an e-bay just because it was an X11 and some guy said it was a real SS. Not all X11 were SS. Some were 6 cyl or base V8 cars with a little bit of styling trim.
P.S. Some Baldwin Motion Phase III cars were X44's and those would blow away X11 Yenko's & COPO's. The ZL1 was king but the motion car would run right there with it. Baldwin- Motion cars deserve more love!!
P.P.S. You can not buy Baldwin-Motion stickers or decals and did you know that some body shops refuse to use a B-M paint scheme because B-M has that copyrighted. I don't blame B-M for doing all that. They want to keep the B-M name legendary and not cloned by every e-bayer out there. Maybe someday I'll find a second gen Camaro with a B-M 454 in it. Those are cool too!! Ok I'm done ramblin on.
However from what I have been told, depending on what an individual wanted to order for an X44 car it could have been optioned out close to an SS small block (350 engine, dual exhaust and some other stuff). I have found though that even then the X44 would have front drums and a P/G trans. And the 350 was the 255 HP 350 not the 300 HP or greater. All the SS Camaro's in 1969 had disc brakes & I can't recall any SS Camaro's with a P/G trans. I believe they were either THM 350, THM 400 or Muncie 4 speed.
I'm not sure if an early built X44 would have received a 327 as a base engine. From what I have read for cars with tags of 01A & later the 307 was the base engine. Nothing wrong with an X44. Don't let the collectors get you down. I'd rather have a nice X44 then some roached out rusted to the max hunk of junk X11 with no engine, no trans, no interior, no glass that I paid $14 grand for an e-bay just because it was an X11 and some guy said it was a real SS. Not all X11 were SS. Some were 6 cyl or base V8 cars with a little bit of styling trim.
P.S. Some Baldwin Motion Phase III cars were X44's and those would blow away X11 Yenko's & COPO's. The ZL1 was king but the motion car would run right there with it. Baldwin- Motion cars deserve more love!!
P.P.S. You can not buy Baldwin-Motion stickers or decals and did you know that some body shops refuse to use a B-M paint scheme because B-M has that copyrighted. I don't blame B-M for doing all that. They want to keep the B-M name legendary and not cloned by every e-bayer out there. Maybe someday I'll find a second gen Camaro with a B-M 454 in it. Those are cool too!! Ok I'm done ramblin on.
No!
X44 = non-SS and non-Z28 Camaro without style trim.
It has no relationship to *any* other option than I just listed above.
You need to spend some time reading..... Several things you posted are incorrect. http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes
You are correct Kurt. But if an X44 is non-SS, Non Z28, and if it's not a COPO, Baldwin-Motion Car, or Yenko , it does not have any of the following according to Camaro's.org: black body sill, rear qtr moldings, drip rail molding, wheel open moldings, blacked-out tailpan, rally stripe, what does it make it? A base Camaro.
*COPO Camaros were an exception, as most COPOs were built
out of bodies coded with X11 or X44, with some cars built
from X66-coded bodies.
That's what I said above. X44 could have been a COPO. However, it is a well known fact the Baldwin Motion Phase III Camaro was pumping out at least 500 HP or more and the Baldwin-Motion Cars would smoke a Yenko which could have been an X44 as well. Only the ZL1 was faster than Baldwin-Motion's Super Car's. This has been documented in magazines like Super Chevy and others.
It is also a known fact that some 1969 Camaro's with tags such as 12B or 12 C could have had the 327 as a base engine. That was changed in early 1969 when the 327 was eliminated in favor of the 307....see below from Camaros.org.
L14 307ci/200HP V8 2BC - non-SS, 1969 only
LF7 327ci/210HP V8 2BC - non-SS, eliminated during 1969
"Note that X11 and X44 codes also included L26 230ci/130HP-1BC and L22 250ci/155HP-1BC 6-cylinder engine cars, as well as models equipped with the LF7 327ci/210HP-2BC, L14 307ci/200HP-2BC, L65 350ci/250HP-2BC, or LM1 350ci/255HP-4BC engines".
That's what I said above an X44 could have came with a low output 350 such as the 255HP.
It is a well known fact that all SS Camaro's were equipped with from disc brakes for 1969. Everyone has see the X11 car claimed to be a reall SS with front drum brakes.
I know I am not perfect. I know I make mistakes. But in your infinite wisdom please inform me what I said was incorrect.
X11 could have had a 6cyl, a 307, 327, or 350 V8, that does not always make in an SS. X44 could have had the same engine options.
According to camaros.org which is where I read that information prior to you posting it everything I said is correct. BTW, tell me the last time you saw a Baldwin-Motion sticker or decal for sale on e-bay? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I respect your opinion but I did my homework on that info before I posted it. Ok maybe a Baldwin-Motion Car was made out of an X22, X66, X11, X44, X55 or an early Norwood or LA tagged car and I apologize if I'm wrong on that. The Baldwin-Motion Camaro's were also guaranteed to run 11.50...That blows away a Yenko or COPO. Please inform us what I said was wrong.
I know the X-44 has no relationship to the option you mentioned. But once again, if they are non SS, non Big Block, Non-Z28, Non COPO, Non ZL1, non Baldwin-Motion, non- Yenko, no styling trim, what does that make an X-44? a base Camaro either equipped with an inline 6, 350, 327 or 307? and maybe a P/G trans or maybe a THM350 or Muncie 4 speed? If I'm wrong there please let me know.
Here's a website some of you may like on Baldwin-Motion Camaro's built from 1967-1974. The Phase III was da bomb!!
http://www.officialbaldwinmotion.com/history.htm
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it and I stand corrected. Happy New Year!!
Greg
*COPO Camaros were an exception, as most COPOs were built
out of bodies coded with X11 or X44, with some cars built
from X66-coded bodies.
That's what I said above. X44 could have been a COPO. However, it is a well known fact the Baldwin Motion Phase III Camaro was pumping out at least 500 HP or more and the Baldwin-Motion Cars would smoke a Yenko which could have been an X44 as well. Only the ZL1 was faster than Baldwin-Motion's Super Car's. This has been documented in magazines like Super Chevy and others.
It is also a known fact that some 1969 Camaro's with tags such as 12B or 12 C could have had the 327 as a base engine. That was changed in early 1969 when the 327 was eliminated in favor of the 307....see below from Camaros.org.
L14 307ci/200HP V8 2BC - non-SS, 1969 only
LF7 327ci/210HP V8 2BC - non-SS, eliminated during 1969
"Note that X11 and X44 codes also included L26 230ci/130HP-1BC and L22 250ci/155HP-1BC 6-cylinder engine cars, as well as models equipped with the LF7 327ci/210HP-2BC, L14 307ci/200HP-2BC, L65 350ci/250HP-2BC, or LM1 350ci/255HP-4BC engines".
That's what I said above an X44 could have came with a low output 350 such as the 255HP.
It is a well known fact that all SS Camaro's were equipped with from disc brakes for 1969. Everyone has see the X11 car claimed to be a reall SS with front drum brakes.
I know I am not perfect. I know I make mistakes. But in your infinite wisdom please inform me what I said was incorrect.
X11 could have had a 6cyl, a 307, 327, or 350 V8, that does not always make in an SS. X44 could have had the same engine options.
According to camaros.org which is where I read that information prior to you posting it everything I said is correct. BTW, tell me the last time you saw a Baldwin-Motion sticker or decal for sale on e-bay? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I respect your opinion but I did my homework on that info before I posted it. Ok maybe a Baldwin-Motion Car was made out of an X22, X66, X11, X44, X55 or an early Norwood or LA tagged car and I apologize if I'm wrong on that. The Baldwin-Motion Camaro's were also guaranteed to run 11.50...That blows away a Yenko or COPO. Please inform us what I said was wrong.
I know the X-44 has no relationship to the option you mentioned. But once again, if they are non SS, non Big Block, Non-Z28, Non COPO, Non ZL1, non Baldwin-Motion, non- Yenko, no styling trim, what does that make an X-44? a base Camaro either equipped with an inline 6, 350, 327 or 307? and maybe a P/G trans or maybe a THM350 or Muncie 4 speed? If I'm wrong there please let me know.
Here's a website some of you may like on Baldwin-Motion Camaro's built from 1967-1974. The Phase III was da bomb!!
http://www.officialbaldwinmotion.com/history.htm
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it and I stand corrected. Happy New Year!!
Greg
Hey Greg, I see that 1994 was a pretty bad year for you! Thanks for all the info. We, collectively on this site, are at best only 99% accurate. Can you imagine how inaccurate people are going to be once all of us old timers are gone---- I guess by then it won't really matter! Charlie
I agree with Kurt too. That's why I said stand corrected. But if an X44 was not a small Block SS, not a Big Block SS, Not a Z-28, Not a COPO, Not a Yenko, Not a ZL1, Not a Baldwin Motion Car, not a car without styling trim what does it make it? A base Camaro. I apologize if I did not say that correctly the first time out. You guys are absolutely correct that an X44 was not an SS. But it could have come with a 307, 327, 350, possibly a COPO, Yenko or maybe a Baldwin-Motion Cars. That's the only point I was trying to make. I know they were not SS's.
The e-bay people think a 6 cyl X11 car is an SS and many of the e-bayer's hate on the X44's. The scammer's trying to commit undetected fraud on e-bay also think that 12337 VIN plate X11 cars were SS and that all 12437 VIN plate X44 were authentic COPO's & Yenko's. I've also seen stuff there with 124379N64----VIN's, X22 codes and 02B cowl tags. No way that VIN corresponds to the tag. Sorry, my post should have been directed to the criminal element on e-bay. There was also a guy on craig's list and on other sites as well trying to pass of a 1972 RS Camaro as a real RS Z28. Little did he know begining in 1972 Chevy had the engine code in the 5th digit of the VIN and the VIN was listed in the ad. He disputed everyone that called him out on it. Sorry man, the scammers are really getting to me. I know you guys are not scammers. You guys here are cool with me!!
Thanks for the response & Happy New Year!!
The e-bay people think a 6 cyl X11 car is an SS and many of the e-bayer's hate on the X44's. The scammer's trying to commit undetected fraud on e-bay also think that 12337 VIN plate X11 cars were SS and that all 12437 VIN plate X44 were authentic COPO's & Yenko's. I've also seen stuff there with 124379N64----VIN's, X22 codes and 02B cowl tags. No way that VIN corresponds to the tag. Sorry, my post should have been directed to the criminal element on e-bay. There was also a guy on craig's list and on other sites as well trying to pass of a 1972 RS Camaro as a real RS Z28. Little did he know begining in 1972 Chevy had the engine code in the 5th digit of the VIN and the VIN was listed in the ad. He disputed everyone that called him out on it. Sorry man, the scammers are really getting to me. I know you guys are not scammers. You guys here are cool with me!!
Thanks for the response & Happy New Year!!
In my opinion, a X44 with 350 engine is not a base car. Add more options to it and it definately isnt. I guess it depends on what you call a base car.
To me a base car is an very low option car.
X44 is a car without style trim, non z/28 and non SS
I dont know what more there is to say or prove??
To me a base car is an very low option car.
X44 is a car without style trim, non z/28 and non SS
I dont know what more there is to say or prove??
Base car with NO options after X codes was an X44 with a 6 cyl, manual 3 speed on the column.Charlie,
Thanks for the response. 1994 was horrible. The only good thing that happened is selling that pile of dung 1984 Z28. :hurray: I should have gotten rid of that car when it was giving me problems at 93k. Instead I fixed it up (my daily driver) for about 6 or 7 grand, driving it another 30k miles and then dumping it about 18 months later at 120k miles for a grand.
P.S. I'm also a White Sox fan and the strike killed their chances in 1994 after they had the best record in MLB that year. They were only 2 games away from the WS in 1993 so the chances looked good in 1994. Alas, they finally won in 2005. I'm a Bears fan too and they have not won a playoff game since 1994.
Bottom Line: I was not trying to be a jerk. I am FAR FAR away from perfect. My thoughts should have been guided at the criminal element passing off fraudulent cars on other sites (e-bay, craigs list, collector car trader etc.) What are the criminals going to pass off next? a 1969 Camaro with a 1968 trim tag and a one of a kind original equipment 700 horsepower naturally aspirated Toyota designed 4 cylinder with a 1970 date code on the engine. Wait? how about a 1972 Baldwin Motion Camaro that came with an original equipment with a 4 cylinder Hyundai Motor? Hyundai I belive introduced their first in 1986 but I could be wrong on that. Next you will see a Datsun 280 Z that came O.E. in 1970 with a SBC 350LT1 SBC. :noway:
Thanks for the post & Happy New Year!! :hurray:
Greg
Thanks for the response. 1994 was horrible. The only good thing that happened is selling that pile of dung 1984 Z28. :hurray: I should have gotten rid of that car when it was giving me problems at 93k.
Instead I fixed it up (my daily driver) for about 6 or 7 grand, driving it another 30k miles and then dumping it about 18 months later at 120k miles for a grand. P.S. I'm also a White Sox fan and the strike killed their chances in 1994 after they had the best record in MLB that year. They were only 2 games away from the WS in 1993 so the chances looked good in 1994. Alas, they finally won in 2005. I'm a Bears fan too and they have not won a playoff game since 1994.
Bottom Line: I was not trying to be a jerk. I am FAR FAR away from perfect. My thoughts should have been guided at the criminal element passing off fraudulent cars on other sites (e-bay, craigs list, collector car trader etc.) What are the criminals going to pass off next? a 1969 Camaro with a 1968 trim tag and a one of a kind original equipment 700 horsepower naturally aspirated Toyota designed 4 cylinder with a 1970 date code on the engine. Wait? how about a 1972 Baldwin Motion Camaro that came with an original equipment with a 4 cylinder Hyundai Motor? Hyundai I belive introduced their first in 1986 but I could be wrong on that. Next you will see a Datsun 280 Z that came O.E. in 1970 with a SBC 350LT1 SBC. :noway:
Thanks for the post & Happy New Year!! :hurray:
Greg
Hey Greg - go easy on the ebayers... You make it sound like they all get together and set the verbage for all the auctions... Also many here are ebayers... What happens on ebay is an individual thing, where just like talking to folks at car club gatherings, cruise-ins and shows a lot of the population (owners or not) don't know enough real details beyond the car has badges so that's what it is...
Don't get me wrong, I know where you are coming from, people should be better informed and there are a ton of crooks out there. My point is ebay makes it easy to see more of them in one session without leaving the comfort of your desk than you would see in a lifetime otherwise. but they are all individuals...
Don't get me wrong, I know where you are coming from, people should be better informed and there are a ton of crooks out there. My point is ebay makes it easy to see more of them in one session without leaving the comfort of your desk than you would see in a lifetime otherwise. but they are all individuals...
Great point Dennis!! I have bought some stuff on e-bay. It is a great site. I just don't like to see honest people getting hurt by crooks. That's never great. Again, I apologize if my thoughts were misconstrued in the wrong manner. And I apologize if I got off the subject. Just trying to save someone a few bucks from buying their kid a college present when the car is an obvious fake even to an amateur like myself. Believe me I make mistakes every day and I am humbled each and every day.
Now for another question and I do not know this one. Could have styling trim (quarter louvers, window drip mouldings) been added on at the dealer or ordered separately for an X44?
Thanks & Happy New Year!!
Now for another question and I do not know this one. Could have styling trim (quarter louvers, window drip mouldings) been added on at the dealer or ordered separately for an X44?
Thanks & Happy New Year!!
Greg - It's my understanding dealers did stuff like that a lot to sell cars back in the day. A guy comes in and says that car out on the lot would be just what I want if it had the bright trim. The dealer has the parts in stock and the guy drives his new car home a couple hrs later. Sure beats having to order the customer a car...
Greg,
Sorry if I was being harsh.
Two errors:
- Any car except BB's and Z could have a powerglide. Yes, there are SS350 powerglides in 69. Not many of them though.
- You're connecting a minor appearance item (lack of style trim) to a whole host of unrelated options. Noone ordered an X44 car. They ordered a Camaro with certain options and the plant tracked what the exterior was going to look like via the X-codes. That's all.
An X44 could be a whole bunch of different drivetrains, including COPO 427 (L72 or ZL1) or a loaded LM1 convertible, but not an SS or a Z. But X44 doesn't mean it's a base car.
As I've posted before, 50% of all X-coded cars were X11, only 1 out of 10 of those were an SS.
The wheelwell moulding would be easy to install by the dealer. Some of the other parts of style trim aren't a quick install.
Sorry if I was being harsh.
Two errors:
- Any car except BB's and Z could have a powerglide. Yes, there are SS350 powerglides in 69. Not many of them though.
- You're connecting a minor appearance item (lack of style trim) to a whole host of unrelated options. Noone ordered an X44 car. They ordered a Camaro with certain options and the plant tracked what the exterior was going to look like via the X-codes. That's all.
An X44 could be a whole bunch of different drivetrains, including COPO 427 (L72 or ZL1) or a loaded LM1 convertible, but not an SS or a Z. But X44 doesn't mean it's a base car.
As I've posted before, 50% of all X-coded cars were X11, only 1 out of 10 of those were an SS.
The wheelwell moulding would be easy to install by the dealer. Some of the other parts of style trim aren't a quick install.
Kurt, thanks for the response. Don't worry about it. You are one of the guys who probably has more Camaro knowledge in his pinky than I do in my whole body. I mean this as a compliment not as sarcasm. It's guys like you I asked questions on cars I was looking at who assisted me before I bought the current turd I own now. Again I mean guys like you as a compliment not as an insult.
I did not know X44 could be ordered all sorts of different ways. Some of my friends love the X44 because it's somewhat of a mystery. The other guys hate on them unless they are one of the "glorified cars" I mentioned in an earlier post. Oh well, that's their problem.
Again, I appreciate your response. Your comments are always welcomed with me. I learn something new everyday on this site and that is my goal. :hurray:
Thank You!!
Greg
I did not know X44 could be ordered all sorts of different ways. Some of my friends love the X44 because it's somewhat of a mystery. The other guys hate on them unless they are one of the "glorified cars" I mentioned in an earlier post. Oh well, that's their problem.
Again, I appreciate your response. Your comments are always welcomed with me. I learn something new everyday on this site and that is my goal. :hurray:
Thank You!!
Greg
I think what gets most guys excited when they see X44 is that most COPOs were X44. There's about a 1 in 180 chance that any X coded Camaro is a COPO, but the odds are more like 1 in 90 chance that an X44 is a COPO. Actually, pretty good odds.
ps: Before any statisticians challenge the numbers, I only guessed at the number of Norwood coups built after mid-December, 1968. I know the info is available, but I figured I'm within +/- 5%.
ps: Before any statisticians challenge the numbers, I only guessed at the number of Norwood coups built after mid-December, 1968. I know the info is available, but I figured I'm within +/- 5%.
You guys aren't getting it.
All X44 means is the car was not built with style trim group, was not an SS or Z/28. As John stated it was not some thing you ordered; it was the result of what was not ordered.
All X44 means is the car was not built with style trim group, was not an SS or Z/28. As John stated it was not some thing you ordered; it was the result of what was not ordered.
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