550-650 rwhp and 18 mpg with 4.11's- that's funny......

If you're looking for something with good street manners and that kind on mpg, you're stil better off with an LS than a bbc, IMO. There are plenty of guys putting turbos and/or nitrous on them and getting into that hp range, and they're still very drivable.

 

Build a 450 hp engine of any engine family and put a 250 nitrous system on it. Then you will meet your goals.

 

Yes, lots are going LS. You can't beat the power per cube or per dollar.

I'm voting LS....but then thats the way I went too

Show me a GM BBC that can make 1000+ HP with a stock bottom end ?

 

Yes, lots are going LS. You can't beat the power per cube or per dollar.
...

You left out 'per pound' :thumbsup:

I figured there was a question somewhere in OPs post - just couldn't find ...
Glad you guys did :beers:

 

What kind of power can you get from a bbc stroker on a mild build? I know what kind of power you can get from a mild 6.0 build but I dont know much about chevy strokers at all.I assumed 18 mpg was not unrealistic because many people from my old forum made pumped gas 440 strokers generating 500+ hp seem commonplace. Anyone know what kind of mileage would I get from a bbc stroker?

 

Anyone know what kind of mileage would I get from a bbc stroker?

496 BBC 600hp should get 8-10 mpg with 3.73 gears

 

Little m block 434 sbc and juice will get you close. Can't beat the old school look


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Anthony,

The 496 BBC stroker is probably the easiest and cheapest, you can use a 454 block. You can make 650 plus hp at the crank with a hydraulic roller and GM iron oval ports on a pump gas 496 without any sweat. Injection may give you better mileage.

I don't know of any BBCs or BBM's that get 'good' fuel economy.....you might want to contact Lingenfelter to get some ideas or products...those guys have been into the 'mild engine with big power and good fuel economy game' for a long time. That's who I would go to anyway.

 

What would a 496 stroker kit cost to build? To save on heads I would get the pro comp heads, I can have some upgrades done to them for performance gains and still save some money on them. I checked the Lingenfelter group out and they didnt apear to have any fuel injected sbc or bbc mods. Thanks anyway tho.

 

There's a lot more to the iron LS engines making and surviving big power than cylinder heads. They're good, no doubt, but you have to have an ultra-strong bottom end to survive 1000hp and there's a lot of 6.0's past that level. The entire platform is a lot stiffer than any of the old stuff, thanks not only to cross-bolted mains, but extra stiffening throughout. I haven't weighed one, but I'm sure an iron LS block will weigh withing a few pounds of a 454 block.
They're ugly...but the more I look at and study them, the better looking they get.
Start with the best production 396 4-bolt block and steel crank you can find (need to keep size similar) and I'll add a bit of stroke to a 6.0L LS block to get sizes close. Put the best production heads you can find on both. The LS will out power the old school big block throughout the power band and when you start adding boost or spray to find the limits, the 396 will be scattered well before the LS. One of the rags did a test with a 4.3L LS - stock cast crank and pistons - and got over 1200hp with it with two turbos. That's only 294 cubes. No cap walk, either.
Cylinder heads do make a big difference, though. CNC'd LS7 production heads bump 400cfm with a little tweaking - it wasn't 10 years ago when big block guys were partying because the CNC'd 2-Xtra flowed about the same.
And there are some decent-to-look-at LS engines, a single plane on one with relocated coil packs, etc. makes a good looking mill.

 

I have a 496 with a d1sc. It makes 800 plus hp easily. It is quiet with the low compression until you step on it then all bets are off. Gas mileage? Well I have a zf-6 speed from an old vette. I have 3.90 gears in the rear so I am cruising at less then 2k rpm up to 75 mph. I never measured the mileage but it seems ok? If you step on it once the whole mileage thing becomes moot anyway. I look at it as spg(smiles per gallon). A twin turbo big block or ls1 would be in the 1000 hp range. Hooking up is a joke unless you tub the rear and hit the track. I had the same choice the big block is still less costly in MY OPINION after looking into it seriously. Like someone else said the look of the big block under the hood is just amazing. The ls looks nice but just not the same, again just opinion. I keep rpm under 6k the motor was built to go 8k and I see no need to go more at 6k no matter what gear it is just plain scary. 60 mph burnouts just make you smile.

 

Why don't you just stay within your skill and experience lever and put a GMMP Ramjet 502 or a ZZ572 in the damn thing and quit changing your mind 30 times about what direction your going in. Comes with a warranty and will bolt in.

 

Im not in the business of wasting money so I am attempting to learn from you guys experience, thats why I am trying to get all the facts before I commit to direction on my engine build. I would hate to get an ls, not be happy with it, then try to get a big block when that was always a cheaper option anyway.

 

There isn't a right or wrong answer, you really didn't even "ask" a question. For the lofty goals you set, no matter which platform you choose, chances are it will need to be fuel injected.

The HP goal you have set can be achieved with an LS, SBC, or BBC. All will handle that power just fine.

What are your goals for the car? What is the build style? If you want good handling a SBC might be the best choice since it's the lightest.

I am not an LS fan in old cars. They are not magic like some people think. The power potential comes from the head design. Yes the blocks are nice, but with your goal in mind that doesn't even come into play.

 

Really like to see a BBC do this...l

100k mile 6.0, untouched rotating assy-strait from the wreaker
l92 heads, BW S480
Comp 227/235, .613/.621, 114+4 w/patriot extreme springs
Vic jr/ CSU750 blow through
AIS 3nozzle meth setup, comes in at 4psi
C16 fuel
Ls9 gaskets, Chinese studs
Just engine dyno'd it today
1067hp @ 6700, definitely a Good Friday
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1635044-blow-through-6-0-s480-1067hp.html

 

Mileage on the motor and all that are irrelevant, impressive in it's own right but irrelevant.

But if you don't think a SBC let alone a BBC could do that, you are hanging with the wrong guys. :yes:
I love the descriptions I see with these LS packages, it sounds like me describing my motor just before a street race....stock bottom end, factory heads, valve covers never off..... :noway:

Again, I don't care what anyone else runs in their car, but you guys that think the LS is the holy grail and no other platform can achieve what they have, are just wrong. They are a great modern motor, and they are a chevrolet, so thats cool.
The fact they are ugly is just a personal thing thats all. And for the guys trying to make an LS look like a SBC why bother in my opinion, it's an LS so just embrace it. And take a look at which end the distributor is on an a LS with a distributor conversion....

So now we have officially derailed the thraed into a LS vs SBC/BBC thread....

 

They look good in a pro touring car. I'm just stuck in old school.


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They look good in a pro touring car. I'm just stuck in old school.

So was I...but for a SBC making the same power....would be pretty un-streetable for most.

 

This is true. I'm running into this with my 434 build. Not to mention the fuel I will have to run.


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That is a 3Pedals build....he is here from time to time as well as LS1Tech.

Again, IF you have a BBC (mass produced, no GMPP stuff) with stock rods, stock pistons, stock bore, stock heads, and just used ARP bolts everywhere....you really think you could come close ? And could it live ?
Show me a build... all I'm saying.

 

The whole issue is, the OP never said anything about making 1000HP, so it doesn't really matter. He wants to make about half of that and would like 18 MPG. You show me a N/A LS or anything else other than a diesel that fits the bill. There are a lot of impressive engine builds out there LS, SBC, and BBC. Why do the LS guys always bring up junk yard engines. For every one you show me with a success story of big HP and high mileage junk yard engine I can show you 2 that scattered its guts all over the place. The LS platform is solid, no doubt, but they are not bullet proof. To build one "right" it's not cheap either. Comparing a 5 - 10 year old wrecking yard engine to a 50 year old wrecking yard engine doesn't make sense. That 5 year old engine is computer controlled with FI it didn't live the same life as a N/A 40 -50 year old engine. The LS isn't a direct swap either, so you have to take that into account.

To be clear there is nothing wrong with an LS, but they are not magic. They are cheap from a wrecking yard, but if you bolt it in just how you pulled it, it is not going to be a 10 second bullet like everyone seems to think. I go to the track quite a bit and have never seen an LS powered car be the fastest thing there. That day may be coming, but I bet it won't be a wrecking yard 100k mile engine.

 

Well said Royce, Exactly my point as well.

 

For power, strength, reliability, drivability, fuel economy and (taking all of that into account) overall cost effectiveness, LS is the only way to go. Anyone suggesting that engines designed in the early 50's (SBC) and 60's (BBC) can go toe to toe with engines designed in the mid-90's (LS1) or early 2000's (LS3, etc.) is just fooling themselves.

An SBC or BBC can certainly compete with an LS for power, or reliability, or drivability or fuel economy but not all of them at the same time.

 

Anyone suggesting that engines designed in the early 50's (SBC) and 60's (BBC) can go toe to toe with engines designed in the mid-90's (LS1) or early 2000's (LS3, etc.) is just fooling themselves.

An SBC or BBC can certainly compete with an LS for power, or reliability, or drivability or fuel economy but not all of them at the same time.

And why is that?
No one is saying you have to use a 50 year old cylinder head design or a carburetor obviously, but a modern design head for a SBC/BBC on a 50 year old engine if paired with the right parts will most certainly do that, and why wouldn't it? It's still just an air pump right? Or is the LS some sort of magic motor that turns fairy dust into horsepower?

For the OP, his goals could be met with an LS, SBC, BBC, Ford SB, BB, modular motor, any of the myriad of Mopar motors, even some of the import motors. It's not magic it's planning.

 

550-650 HP at th rear wheels, 4:11gears and 18 MPG is what the op asked for. What is he going to need at the crank for those numbers. Add the 4:11 gear and the wish for 18 MPG.

I don't have and LSX although I do like them and I do agree they are not the prettiest things under the hood and I like the carbed versions with coil packs myself.

Looking at what the OP wants I have to say the LSX and pick what you want for overdrive be it a stick or auto and this is the only combo that can come close to what he is looking for for the total package. It's not going to be cheap, it will not be old school styling so if those are part of the goal it's time to figure out what your going to compromise. I think if your budget will not allow an expensive build it's time to drop your H/P dreams because no matter what you build H/P cost money to do it correctly. If you don't want LSX looks under the hood it's time to consider the amount of money your willing spend to attain the goals you have and possibly lower your MPG goal to a more realistic number in the low to mid teens with that 4:11 gear. You have options but you really need to figure out what's the most important to you.

I saw a post that this car will be more of a street cruiser/driver and not a race car so is the 550-650 H/P at the rear wheels really an important part of this goal?


I just the post above....I don't think they pump magic fairy dust....that was damn funny BTW!!! It's just my opinion that given what is out there today it's the most cost effective way to do everything he wants.....again just my opinion.

 

Joe, its more of a want than a need actually. I could live with anything above 450 hp and tq. After thinking about it, since its a stroker and will have a larger power band 323 or 355 gears could work I think.

 

Then I encourage you to buy one....

 

Yeah, I will just keep my questions to myself. They dont seem welcome.

 

Gonna drag race it? If not, what's all the power for? Gonna autocross it? If not, what's all the power for? The only thing big power is for is the strip. Time slips prove power, nothing else. What's the most powerful car you have ever driven, Anthony? Do you have any idea what needs to be done to the chassis of a 69 Camaro to handle the power numbers you threw out there?

Some people will dance around these issues, I won't. Sorry these questions make you uncomfortable but better they are asked here instead of out in street or strip where it's put up or shut up.

 

To each their own...I know why I went the way I did :yes:

 

To each their own...I know why I went the way I did :yes:

View attachment 33203

But thats so ugly, Doug- it has no place in a first gen.......

 

Ok now everybody go out for a ride burn some rubber and get rid of some of that adrenalin. I did and I feel better. Big blocks will do that to ya, just kidding have fun with your ls, wish I was wealthy I would have another Camaro with a twin turbo ls.

 

I vote for LS. I have a big block in my vette, and I'm actually considering swapping out to an LS at some point in the future.

I'm in the process of building up my 68 SS with an LS3 and a TR6060 out of a 2010 Camaro.



She's not much to look at, but she's got it where it counts.

 

Greyghost, Don't let a few bad apples shy you away from learning. Everyone here had to start learning at some point. Looks like some of us forgot about that. Not one person on this board knows it all. Most here are more than willing to help get you pointed in teh right direction. Just remember there are almost always more than one way to get the job done.

For those with LS engines, I was not knocking you or them. They can work very well. If that's what you like or what you had available, more power to you. It's not my style to knock someone elses build/car, etc.. I can understand the attraction, what I get tired of hearing (usually by those that don't even have one) is how fast and bullet proof they are. They can be very fast and can support quite a bit of HP. That doesn't mean a BBC or SBC are no longer useful or can't make power.

 

For those with LS engines, I was not knocking you or them. They can work very well. If that's what you like or what you had available, more power to you. It's not my style to knock someone elses build/car, etc.. I can understand the attraction, what I get tired of hearing (usually by those that don't even have one) is how fast and bullet proof they are. They can be very fast and can support quite a bit of HP. That doesn't mean a BBC or SBC are no longer useful or can't make power.

Royce, never said they couldn't....just, for one to do so it would be pretty much un-streetable N/A and say 600HP+.
ElMule....great example of street worthy...1000+HP with twins, but I don't think one thing was production GM SBC.

 

Wow, this really deteriorated... Sorry Greyghost. Bottom line, stick around there is lots of good infor to be found on here.


As for the LS deal, again, I have absolutely nothing against them and totally understand the appeal, it's just not what appeals to me. No offense intended to the guys running them.
I don't care what anyone uses, I really don't care if I see a Ford in a Chevy even, as long as it's done well I admire the work and effort spent. I like Fords, Chevy's, some imports and even some Mopars.. It's all cool to me.

That said, with all the available modern parts available for SBC or BBC they can be as good as an LS in basically any department, it's all in the build. I'm not saying a factory motor from a wrecking yard 66 Impala (good luck finding one ), I'm talking Gen 1 small block parts, any of the millions out there.


And Chet.... whatever man. You appear to be one of the many internet keyboard cowboys out there, willing to tell us all about you many endeavors.

Old fuddy duddy? Lol, I have been called a lot of stuff, but not that. I guess I'm in my 40's, thats pretty old to a 16 year old, are you 16? Too funny.
And what makes you think I run a 406?

 

Wow, this really deteriorated... Sorry Greyghost. Bottom line, stick around there is lots of good infor to be found on here.


As for the LS deal, again, I have absolutely nothing against them and totally understand the appeal, it's just not what appeals to me. No offense intended to the guys running them.
I don't care what anyone uses, I really don't care if I see a Ford in a Chevy even, as long as it's done well I admire the work and effort spent. I like Fords, Chevy's, some imports and even some Mopars.. It's all cool to me.

That said, with all the available modern parts available for SBC or BBC they can be as good as an LS in basically any department, it's all in the build. I'm not saying a factory motor from a wrecking yard 66 Impala (good luck finding one ), I'm talking Gen 1 small block parts, any of the millions out there.


And Chet.... whatever man. You appear to be one of the many internet keyboard cowboys out there, willing to tell us all about you many endeavors.

Old fuddy duddy? Lol, I have been called a lot of stuff, but not that. I guess I'm in my 40's, thats pretty old to a 16 year old, are you 16? Too funny.
And what makes you think I run a 406?

What a clever boy! He changed his sig. I really don't care what you run. I really don't care about you. In your forties? You still have much to learn, young padawan. But I would find you too insolent to bother to teach you. Enjoy your earned spot on my ignore list.

 

Well, this thread was exhausting.

1. Great question. Maybe not stated artfully, but a 7th grader could have figured out what the op was after. He stated clearly:

"I guess what I want is something extremely streetable, a sleeper, somewhere between 550-650 rwhp 600-700 fpt and get around 18 mpg or better."

2. He wasn't sure how to achieve that. That is what makes it a great question.

3. What a shame some have to denigrate others just to make themselves feel better. I am guessing either inferiority complex or NLDS. Either way, sure makes this discussion less enjoyable.

4. To the OP: Can you get 650 RWHP and 18 mpg? Yes it can be done, and it can be done as many have pointed out with SBC, BBC, SB2.2 or LS platforms. At this point it is probably more of a personal preference than any other single factor. IMHO, I would dismiss the BBC because of weight. I have driven small block first gens and big blocks one right after the other. The BBC is just too heavy. Again, jmo.

I saw very little discussion about transmission choices, but to achieve your mileage goal you will have to have some kind of over drive, probably a good 6 speed.

You MIGHT make it without forced induction, but much more likely to succeed with forced induction. My personal preference here is turbos. My 215 cubic inch motor makes a good 300 at the rear wheels at 15 psi on pump gas. (It is a bimmer, so maybe that makes me a snob, even though I bought it years ago out of a salvage yard with the engine in the trunk, and it now has about 306,000 miles on it). However, I only get about 22 on the highway with a 3.26 gear and slightly overdriven fifth gear. It is also heavier than a first Gen Camaro. It is also 30 year old technology. Lots of room for improvement. Also, if you go turbo, the turbo(s) help quiet the exhaust, so it adds a little to the sleeper factor. My car is unbelieivably quiet. And there are no parasitic losses as with a belt driven blower, so normally fuel economy will be slightly better, all other factors being equal.

If you don't want to "reinvent the wheel" just keep a lookout for cars that have achieved your goals. They are out there. Copy what they did.

I am guessing (and mind you this is only a guess) that there is someone out there with a 5.3 truck motor that went twin turbo, used the original FI harness with some upgraded injectors etc., and had it properly tuned for the set up. I don't believe you would even need a cam change. Might not achieve your goals in every respect, but you could get close.

If you are willing to live with "just" 500 horses, perhaps a Z06 take out motor would work best. I have a buddy with a Z06 six speed (maybe they all are, I don't know) and he gets 28 mpg at 75. Fifth and Sixth are overdrive. Of course a first gen Camaro isn't as slippery, so it won't do quite that well.

Many ways to get there. There is no "best". Pick one and by all means have some fun with it.

Good luck.

 

Lynn I appreciate your suggestions, I may just go 6.0 overdrive tranny 323/355 and turbo it at some point. Thats kinda what I figured Lynn, I wonder if I should still stroke it?



And Chet, could you ignore me too? I would appreciate it. I think it would further my build by light years.