and your point is???

 

Nice ---

It gives some info on their reasoning and the direction they chose to take

 

and your point is???

His point is that he likes it

 

That Multi-Quote function is neato

 

It is cool

 

That is their mistake!!!

 

Yea, but we all know how it turned out when Bob Lutz followed his own ways instead of what the car buying public wanted with the 04-06 GTO. How'd that one turn out Bob? You'll sell more of them if more people like them, no matter what you think about how retro it should or shouldn't be. Alot of people like the new design, but more people want it to be more retro.I thought GM was in business to give the public what it wants, not just what Mr. Lutz wants.

 

Comparing this car to the previous GTO is like apples and oranges IMO.
The GTO was slammed into production. They took an existing car, made some cosmetic changes and had to pay to ship them to the USA to sell them. That alone bumped up the cost.

Lack of styling and price killed the GTO IMO.

This car is being engineered from the ground up on a shared platform, hardley the same thing.

Does this mean it will succeed? Of course not. How GM prices it will have a huge impact.

 

The Thunderbird was retro, and it did pretty well

The retro approach can be risky.

 

That Thunderbird looked good.

Price and lack of performance killed that car. Building it on the Lincoln LS/Jag chassis made for an nice ride but they overpriced it.

 

Anyone who compares the previous GTO to the new Camaro or feels the new Camaro should be more retro because (allegedly) that's what the buying public wants...needs to be thoroughly educated in how the United States automotive industry works

You people forget the type of customers that we are selling our cars to. This is not 1944 or 1967....it's 2006. We are dealing with a cynical buying public. One that tires easily of their cars and is always looking for the latest and greatest and hippest thing out there. Products are like chewing gum today....they chew the hell out of it until the flavor's gone then they spit it out on the sidewalk and start frantically looking for another peice. Case in point...Thunderbird. A great car....a great design....took the world by storm when it debuted. 5 years later....canceled. Why? Because everyone that wanted one bought one....and when all those people had been satisfied...the market dried up. With nowhere to take the design from where it was (because it was so damn retro) they had no choice but to cancel it. Challanger will be no different. Again....a great car....I personally love it. But as soon as the first one rolls off the assembly line you can go ahead and start counting the days until it's canceled. There is no "reach" in those products. They all come out of the gate with a proverbial dead end in their sights. Like a metorite entering the atmosphere....bright and brilliant at first, but then quickly fades away. You watch....after everyone that "wants one" gets one, the demand for those cars will fade to the point where it will no longer be worth it for Chrysle....er, I mean....the Germans to build it. And I guarantee Mustang will be drastically different when they have to build a new one in a few years. That will effect sales....don't think it won't.

And a word about GTO. For the love of God will you SHUT UP about the damn GTO already. Like Overanxious said....apples to oranges. Actually...this might be closer to apples and spinach....they're not even in the same food group. One was a spinoff from an existing car already in production, the other is being designed from the ground up right from the start to be what it will be. We only did the GTO to fill a void in the Rear Wheel Drive performance segment. I don't know that the General had any high hopes for it....but hell they had to take a chance, they needed SOMETHING...ANYTHING. Did it work out for us? No. But at least we offered something instead of sitting on our thumbs for 3 years. The GTO is a great car to drive...and it's fast. If it had been called something like the Pontiac G8...none of you would have said boo about it. I am confident that we are taking our car in the right direction and that we will get the last laugh on all of them. And through the years this Camaro is only going to get better and better and better because it's design will give it the reach to be updated several times for a longer shelf life. If you don't want to be a part of the party...then go sit in your garage with your 2008 Challanger. Hope the novelty lasts long enough for ya.

 

Anyone who compares the previous GTO to the new Camaro or feels the new Camaro should be more retro because (allegedly) that's what the buying public wants...needs to be thoroughly educated in how the United States automotive industry works

You people forget the type of customers that we are selling our cars to. This is not 1944 or 1967....it's 2006. We are dealing with a cynical buying public. One that tires easily of their cars and is always looking for the latest and greatest and hippest thing out there. Products are like chewing gum today....they chew the hell out of it until the flavor's gone then they spit it out on the sidewalk and start frantically looking for another peice. Case in point...Thunderbird. A great car....a great design....took the world by storm when it debuted. 5 years later....canceled. Why? Because everyone that wanted one bought one....and when all those people had been satisfied...the market dried up. With nowhere to take the design from where it was (because it was so damn retro) they had no choice but to cancel it. Challanger will be no different. Again....a great car....I personally love it. But as soon as the first one rolls off the assembly line you can go ahead and start counting the days until it's canceled. There is no "reach" in those products. They all come out of the gate with a proverbial dead end in their sights. Like a metorite entering the atmosphere....bright and brilliant at first, but then quickly fades away. You watch....after everyone that "wants one" gets one, the demand for those cars will fade to the point where it will no longer be worth it for Chrysle....er, I mean....the Germans to build it. And I guarantee Mustang will be drastically different when they have to build a new one in a few years. That wll effect sales....don't think it won't.

And a word about GTO. For the love of God will you SHUT UP about the damn GTO already. Like Overanxious said....apples to oranges. Actually...this might be closer to apples and spinach....they're not even the same food. One was a spinoff from an existing car already in production, the other is being designed from the ground up right from the start to be what it will be. We only did the GTO to fill a void in the Rear Wheel Drive performance segment. I don't know that the General had any high hopes for it....but hell they had to take a chance, they needed SOMETHING...ANYTHING. Did it work out for us? No. But at least we offered something instead of sitting on our thumbs for 3 years. The GTO is a great car to drive...and it's fast. If it had been called something like the Pontiac G8...none of you would have said boo about it.

There....I think I ranted long enough. Actually I don't know why I even bothered typing this. This is an arguement that can't be won.

Very well stated

 

GM paraded the new Camaro this past Friday morning at the Woodward Cruise. when the driver (whoever he was) started the engine, it black-smoked out the pipes....like a stuck choke would do............................
that's retro :thumbsup:

 

Just take a look at the poll on this forum! Only 41% say that they would buy it. AND THIS IS A CAMARO WEBSITE!!! Yes, I say its not retro enough. Market demands change. When it runs its course then you move on to something new. It was discontinued because they did not keep up with market demands. IMO build it like it is and it will sell, build it more retro and it will sell more. It will stale out either way. Make the best of it.

 

I was a regular on Corvette forums when the 1997 C5 Corvette wasn't in showrooms yet. Over 50% of the members stated they wouldn't buy a C5, guess what, within a year most of them had them in their own driveways.

Additionally, Contrary to what some may thing, members of internet forums are only a small fraction of the car buyers out there

 

when the new GTO was announced, they made it very clear from the get-go that it was only gonna be out for 3 years due to crash standards and what not.
they also said they weren't planning on selling 100,000 of them every year.
i seem to remember 20,000-30,000 being the stated goal, with a USA made replacement to follow sometime after.
the GTO was a marketing experiment to see what went over and what didn't. they learned what they wanted to learn, and now that knowledge is being used in the new Camaro and all across GM's product lines.
and, besides, the GTO was what "everyone" said they wanted. "everyone" said to just throw some retro badges on a Monaro and bring it here. they did, and all anyone did was complain about it. personally, i loved the '05 and '06 GTO with the scoops on the hood and the LS2/6 speed under the hood.

 

and, besides, the GTO was what "everyone" said they wanted. "everyone" said to just throw some retro badges on a Monaro and bring it here. they did, and all anyone did was complain about it. personally, i loved the '05 and '06 GTO with the scoops on the hood and the LS2/6 speed under the hood.

I was reading through some old car crafts and that's EXACTLY what they said to do. Then in a 2005 issue they said exactly the opposite. What a joke. What was it, the GTO only had 10 months of coversion time to US spec, and given the differences between the GTO and the Monaro (right hand drive, etc, gas tank BS..) that's pretty impressive.

 

Just paint it to make it retro!

 

Props to Infamous. Keep the faith and good work.

Got cash in hand for my 08' Z28/SS.

"Build it and they will come"

 

I hate to say it, but the smiley face grill is growing on me... Count me in on a ragtop as soon as they become available. I guess maybe our inside sources in the automotve industry that have been kind enough to take their time to school us actually do know what they are talking about:thumbsup: Thanks guys!
(I still hope they tweak the rear lights a little though)

 

For one thng, I'm not bashing the GTO. I like the car, but I am bashing M. Lutz for his decision on using this car to put the GTO name on. His opinion on this car was not in touch with the car guy car buying public (slow sales prove that). Therefore when he say's that going more retro isn't the way to go with the new Camaro, I feel he may be missing out on what people want. My point is, just because he thinks it's perfect dosen't mean he's right.As far as did I take or quote a poll about the new Camaro to get in touch with the car buying public about their feelings on the new Camaro and if it's retro enough or not, the answer is no, but I don't need to. I go to car cruises everyweekend and there is always talk about the new Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang(sometimes even moreso than the old iron there). I've never heard anyone, in person, say the new Camaro dosen't need to be more retro. On the contrary, everyone I hear (at shows, on the CB, at other car events, hanging out at the parts store), everyone I hear talk about the new Camaro says the same thing, if it was more retro then they'd buy it. Even diehard GM fans I know are waiting on the new Challenger. People on this site are pretty biased towards Camaro's (it is a Camaro site after all), but I'd expect the response to the question of will you buy the ne Camaro, especially on this site, to be well about 60% saying yes, they would buy the new Camaro, but only 41% saying yes on a Camaro bullitin board, now that really tells me that something is wrong. Yes, most on here are first gen guys (I am too), but they are still new car buyers as well (everyone needs a daily driver). Will people get tired of the new retro body's? Yes, just like they always have. hat's why the factory needs them to evolve like they did in the 60's and 70's without turning them into slugs like in the mid to late 70's. Maybe Ford's next mustang will look more like a 70 Mach1 and keep the lust alive. The Camaro could be much more retro and evolve as well. I don't see how you could go wrong using a classic design and giving it a modern touch and keep updating it enough to keep it fresh without detroying it, could be bad? If Chevy brought out a new full sized, used the Bel Air name, and based it off a 55-57, but with modern power, handling, and comfort, do you think they could build them fast enough?

 

If Chevy brought out a new full sized, used the Bel Air name, and based it off a 55-57, but with modern power, handling, and comfort, do you think they could build them fast enough?

Kind of brings the SSR to mind. Not the same thing, of course, it was a niche vehicle (one that the niche was non-existent), but just another failed retro design.

I just hope that GM keeps an open mind/ear with the 5th gen and listens to the enthusiasts of the classic camaros along with the potential buyers of the new car. Their usual head-in-the-sand, "we know what we're doing, dont tell us what to do" attitude will simply not cut it. Whether that means more or less retro, that is a tough call.



dave

 

You know what's interesting about that 41% figure is that everyone is using it as an indicator that the car is unliked here. Well....I just looked at the poll and there is 35.83% who say "maybe" and "not sure". Only 22% said they wouldn't. And how many of that 35.83% are going to continue to sit on the fence in '09? Who's to say that once the car comes out that a lot of them won't jump in and buy and we hit that 60% target? I'll tell you what....I don't know how you're interpreting that poll but I gotta think 22% for "no buy" is pretty damn good. And I like our odds to win over much of those fence sitters.

 

Gm is in the business to make money for its shareholders and if giving the people what they want will help accomplish that, then it's their duty.

The T-Bird was over priced, and underpowered, and that's why its wasn't the big seller Ford hoped it would be.

 

If you build it just like a 69 Camaro, then you have no where to go with it and it will be dead in a few years. The new Dodge will be out of production in 3 years, like the Prowler was – and that is their intent, I am sure if it. GM designed this Camaro to continue on. Move forward. Like everyone said, the GTO was a quick deal, they did what people asked (throw badges on a Holden) and then they cried it was boring. The general public is nuts. That car looks better to me every day, at least when they added the better hood.

I’ve said it before & will say it again: I know they are very close to perfect because the average 1st gen guy thinks it doesn’t look enough like a 1st gen, and everyone else thinks it looks too much like a 69 Camaro. I still say once you see it in person, your tune will change. I’ve seen it 3 times and love it. Hopefully GM will kill off the round gauges in square holes, and add vent windows.

I’m thinking a 2010 for myself. I need to milk my 2002 Intrigue out that long.

 

Those who say it isn't retro enough, are saying they'd like to see a more retro Camaro for themselves. I don't know if you can really claim one will sell better than a another, although someone may have argued that already.
Retro design is like any other design, if people like it, they'll buy it. The Mustang is not suffering from being retro and to me the retro designs that failed, failed because they were just plain ugly or under-performed for the $$$. If the current Camaro design does well, than GM did the right thing. Allot of times the most successful products are the ones you either love or hate. Not much middle ground. I personally don't like the 5th gen. concept, but I don't think that means it won't do well.

 

Just take a look at the "who's got the best concept pony car" poll. It says it all. 2/3 of the people choose the challenger! AND THIS IS A CAMARO SITE!!!

 

LOL... A 1st gen Camaro site! Of course a retro group is going to pick the car that looks the most retro over something very futuristic. A lot of things change in a short time and car manufactures have to look into the future when introducing new cars.

Look at the difference in each generation of Camaro to see what I mean.

 

whats an ls3?

 

Half of an LS-6???

 

LS3 may very well be a 6.2l version LS2 replacement motor

 

man,

I heard the meanest 4th gen ive ever heard last night. sounded supercharged with a decent cam in it. the guy got on it pretty hard from a light as we were waiting for a table at claim jumper.

cant wait to get me a new camaro! ls7 ls3 ls9 whatever, just build them soon

 

the cars coming out in 2.5 years, not next week... i think theyre doing the right thing by not making it too retro... i think its a good design (still change a few things... the tail lights and the knightrider thing in the front) and they wont be the last ones to the party with an outdated design in 3 years. instead, everyone will be trying to copy them.

 

I think they have done a great job of mixing the old and new. Personally I like new cars less and less everyday. Don't get me wrong they drive great but they all seem to copy eachothers designs way to much. I am building a 69 because it is unique and to me the best looking car ever made. To me the new cars are nothing special. They get you where you need to go and that is the end of it. I own a C5 vette and a 545I and they are great cars. Just get lost in the crowd in my opinion.