Eric,
In a nutshell it's the age old supply and demand principal. Z/28's were bought to race. Pace cars in general were not driven as hard resulting in a higher chance of original drivetrain survival.

If an owner blows the original motor in a pace car he has a pace car without the original motor. Same as a Z.

Another point is all pace cars look the same. Z/28's have all kinds of paint options and interior options. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a pace car, I think they are beautiful cars!!

Some are into originality as I am. A ZZ383 motor may be fast but anybody with $4,600 dollars can buy one. Finding an original Z/28 with the original drivetrain is not quite as easy.

 

if the owner of a Z/28 blow's his original engine he can just get one on ebay
I understand why the z's are worth money but with the number of cloned car's it look's like the price would stay down but it has not ,,,,

 

How much faster was the 302/290 hp Z28 that the 350/300hp L-48 Camaro? I realize that the Z28 had more hp than the advertised 290hp, however, it also had about 50 pounds less torque than the L-48. So, in real world driving (i.e. 0-60 mph and standing 1/4 mile), if both cars had (for exmaple) the M20 4spd, 3.55 rear and the same size rear tires, how much faster would the Z28 be, if any?

Eric

 

Z28's had a little more than just a 302. Just as 69 pace cars had a little more than just orange interior.
Each type of Camaro sets its own value based on the market. I have a Z10 that has a Z10 stamped on the cowl tag. Some people would say "big deal", some would say "how much $$$ you want."

You are talking about Camaros that are not made now or never will be made again. I've seen Camaro people at car shows stare at a Z28 all day and then take a 5 second look at a pace Camaro. Also the other way around. It's all about what you are into. I personally love to stare at all the first gens. We are all lucky to own a piece of history that many cannot. Enjoy it while you can!

The cars are only worth what someone is willing to pay.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love all Camaros, and I feel blessed to own one. I was just venting a little because I was considering buying one and I'm going through "sticker shock". I just didn't realize what Z28s are fetching these days on Ebay and elsewhere.

Eric

 

Eric,
In my experience a stock 302 Z/28 is not so impressive in a short race unless you know how to wind it up big time. Absolutley no low end. They are built for high RPM performance such as the Trans AM racing that was going on in the late '60's. That's where alot of the Z mystique came from.
Doug

 

It used to go the other way Eric where Pace cars set the numbers at shows like BJ and places like Hemmings. A pace car 10 years ago could bring 30K-45K. It took some time but the Z28 caught up and actually surpassed the Pace Car becuase of Americas renewed interest for the Z28 Car. That is what drives price my friend, not the collector books. If more people are falling in love with the Z28, it drives the price.

Maybe we can actually thank some of the nice looking clones for being on the street and generating some renewed interest. It makes it like a high dollar belly button car where everybody wants ones, and disposable incomes will drive that until there is no more. If it comes to a matching number Z, they can now be seen constant in the 40's. I am restoring a Documented Numbers Matching Car right now and my resto is costing double that because the rare parts required are also being driven up. Ouch that!

I'd have to say it's the mystique that drives their price. Most think they are the hottest speed car since sliced bread. They did downplay the horsepower on Z28's for Insurance purposes, but since you opened the door on the drag race comparison.

You put your 300HP Pace Car with a 4 gear M20 and 355 gears up against a Factory ordered Z28 with a 345HP 302, M22 trans and couple that with a factory optioned 410 or 456 posi and all that will be left when I hit 7500 is a white car in the rear view. When the Z28 hits that HP band during that initial first gear run, there is no looking back. The torque factor is a non issue when those gears are wound and the shifts are always in a power band. There are always 2 sides to that coin, but a good 4 gear driver with a high winding 302 can kill a 350 car almost every time in the quarter. I know someone that did it with regularity.

 

Eric:
We actually contacted a previous owner of our Z10 to try to find some info on the car. The guy had no email or internet connection (contacted by phone). He lived in the sticks somewhere in Southern Virginia. When we told him we were documenting the car because it was very rare and valuable, he replied "the car isn't worth much, it's not like it's a Z28." When trying to explain what he once had in his possession (when painted blue), he laughed and told us we didn't know much about older Camaros, and never heard of a Z10.
My point is... even this guy knew the value of a Z28 but had no idea what a Z10 and probably a pace car was, not to mention COPO's etc. The general public associates the valuable Camaro with the Z28. Don't worry, your pacer will always be sought after (just like the Z28)by a serious collector.

 

Hey Hugger,

First off, nice web site! Second, I like what you're doing with your Z28 motor--keeping it stock looking with the performance upgrades. Third, I would be willing to bet it would be a very close race between a stock 302/290hp Z28 vs. stock 350/300hp Camaro, both with M20 4spd and a 3.55 (or like in my car a 3.31 rear), along with the same size tires. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt the the Z28 will win, but not by much...

Eric

 

Eric a stock DZ 302 and a stock L48 are 2 different animals. You would kill the 302 by mating it with 3.55:1 gears, it doesn't even wake up until the L48 is ready to take a nap. The 302 has 11:1 compression, decent high rise intake and a performance ignition backing up the solid lifter cam and will rev to 8000 rpm without breaking a sweat. The L48 has a few extra cubes but only 10.25:1 compression and it's hyd cam and steel intake quits about 5000 rpm.

I can tell you have a lot of pride in you pace car but don't put up your pink slip against a Stock Z/28 if the driver knows what he is doing and willing to rev the 302 mill a bit. A stock Z/28 will beat a stock SS 350 in the 1/4 or going around the track. It doesn't make the pace car or SS any less cool. I currently know a lot of Z/28 owners and not many are willing to risk their mills to prove it's prowess. Back in the 70's I knew many different Z owners that at the time lived for winding out their little mouse's and the L48 doesn't stand a chance...

4 years ago, maybe 5 I got back in the Camaro market and looked at many near show/show quality pace cars for under $30K and the same condition '69 Z/28 was selling for about $5-7K less. Now I see both in the $35-40K range. Yes, there are some of both going for a lot more but they fall in the trailer car catagory IMO. The pace car has it's obvious "Indy 500" heritage and there were only 1 pace car made for every 5 Z/28's, it's always been "show car" disirable and shall we say pampered. The Z on the other hand is full of race heritage, and up until about 5-8 years ago was the car to have, drive hard and beat the snot out of by everyone from teens to serious drag racers. Even though there were 5 Z's for every pace car produced a lot of them didn't survive.

Now in the last 5-8 years or so the well is drying up and of all the Camaros that were not really sought after a short time ago the Z's are the most desirable along with big block SS'. When an item hit the "desirable" it's a sellers market and prices sky rocket.

 

Eric: The answer to why Z28's are worth more is only because someone is willing to pay the price asked. They were built for a purpose, racing. Just as the COPO cars and Hemi cars were. This is only an opinion.

 

Eric,

Thanks for the compliments on the web site. Its coming along with the car and gets updated as I find time. I can't wait to run my spare motor and see what it does. Take care and welcome to Team Camaro. Lots of topics and some great folks here!

Great info there Dennis!

Graeme

 

Eric,
Don't sweat it. As time goes on, Z28's will become more plentiful. In fact, I'll bet there are more Z28's and pace cars on the road today than the factory EVER built!

 

According to Motor Trend, 3/69 issue, an L48 Camaro SS did 0-60 in 8.3 seconds and the quarter in 15.9 @ 88 mph.

The Z/28 ran anywhere from 6.7 to 7.1 seconds 0-60 times (5.3 with 2X4 carb), ref 5/67 Car & Driver to 6/69 Sports Car Graphic test. Quarter Mile times were 14.9 @ 100 mph. The 2X4 carbed Z did 12.8 @ 116 mph!

These times are for stock exhaust systems. Let the Z breath with headers and other tests have shown marketable improvements for the Z.

For fun, the stock ZL1 was test at 11.78 @ 122 mph in the quarter per Popular Hot Rodding. Not sure of the car set-up

Still wanna race?

 

I surrender. The 302 is the toughest small block for the Camaro. My pace car with its 3.31 rear is my daily driver. Most Z28s seem to have 3.73-4.56 gears, all of which are too much gear for practical driving.

Are the heads different on the 302? My 350 heads have a small triangle and not the "double hump" castings that I often see.

 

I think what hurts the Pace Cars a little in price is that they are all the same color.

 

Pace cars have to be hurt by that Orange interior. I love Hugger Orange, but that interior is just too much IMO.

Lots more Z28's and Z11's are around today than ever were in 1969. If you are looking to purchase either of these cars, it is extremely easy to do. Always plenty available for sale. Real ones? Who knows. Until GM documentation is released for every VIN produced, we will not know.

An awful lot of Z28's have "DZ" motors in them as well. How many of these were stamped "DZ" in 1969 is another story.

 

It's all about the demand. Everyone wants a Z28 right now so the prices have climbed really fast for original cars. Personally, I like the Pace Cars a lot, but I'm not a big fan of convertibles anymore so to me it actually hurts the value because I wouldn't be putting the top down anyway. The Pace Car is really just an RS/SS with Orange stripes/interior. All the Z28's were 4 speeds so maybe that adds to the mystique.

 

Originally posted by ericdw:

Are the heads different on the 302? My 350 heads have a small triangle and not the "double hump" castings that I often see.

Eric,
The heads on an original 302 are the "double hump" 3927186 casting, 2.02" intake valves and 1.60" exhaust.

 

As Z28Doug said, the Z heads had large valves. The 300 HP heads are essentially the same, except they have the 1.94" intake x 1.5" exhaust. I believe these are the xxxx041 heads ( with the triangle on the front) They have the same combustion chambers as the 186 casting except for the valve unshrouding ( intake) done on the Z head. All in all a decent head. Many of the -186 heads were produced with small valves as well.

Rob

 

The L48 engine used both the 041 heads (tiangle symbol) and 186 heads (camel humps). Both with 1.94 valves. Every pace car I have seen and documented has an engine built at Tonawanda engine and it seems they all came with the 041 heads. I have seen L48's with 186 heads, but they are from the Flint engine plant.

170 waterpumps are exclusive to the Tonawanda engine plant. I like how those sell on eBay as a z28 waterpump for $200+ and they never built DZ coded engines at Tonawanda.

 

My Tonawanda L48 has the the "rare" stuff

388 block, 041 heads and 170 water pump.

 

My block is stamped "T0304HA" along with "19L" before the VIN number.

Eric

 

If you were to option out a Z/28 you would find it was one of the more expensive camaro's even more then a COPO.

The Z/28 defines what a camaro is. Another reason the Z cars are so much money is they were packaged with a small block called a 302. try walking in to PEP Boys and tell them you have a camaro with a 302 and they will look at like you are crazy.

As far as being a little crazy I have spun my Dz #'s matching motor well past 7 G

 

I agree DZ. So, should I rebuild my numbers matching L-48 350 motor and ad some performance upgrades, or put aside the original engine in the garage and buy a crate motor. In particular, the ZZ383 (350), which cranks out 425hp/460torque?