327 cam advise

MN RagTop · Sep 28, 2012

I would like some advice on a cam selection for my engine set up.
67 convertible
M20 muncie 4speed
11 inch clutch
3.31 posi 12 bolt rear end
14 in wheels
327 engine bored .030
flat top 4 valve relief pistons
3782461 camel back heads 1.94 valves 64cc (off 64 vette engine)
3905393 cast iron 4 barrel spread bore intake (off 64 vette engine)
4 barrel quadrajet carb
stock cast iron exhaust manifolds
HEI ignition
Run on pump gas, once and awhile a tank of 110 octane for the yummy smell.
This car is going to be a street rod/cruiser. No plans on taking it to the drag track. I would like to get 350hp out of it, I don't know if what I have listed for parts will get me that hp or at least close to it.
What cam should I use? don't want to spend the $ for a roller set up.
Should I Port and Polish the heads? (is it worth the cost)
Block deck is standard and heads I don't know if they have been milled down or not.
Do I deck the block? What compression ratio should I shoot for?

arocars · Sep 28, 2012

With that setup, I would not go above a 280/480 lift cam, and even that is too much for those gears. With those gears, I would recommend a 268 or 272 cam. For the money I would skip the port and polish of your heads. If you are going to change heads, you are dollars ahead to go with massaged vortecs from summit. Skip the roller cam. Its not worth the money. 9.5:1 compression would be ideal and easily streetable.

97Z4C · Sep 28, 2012

i agree the comp 268 cam is ideal for this set up--no porting-i do recommend cutting the stud bosses to screw in studs or drilling and installing roll pins so studs dont pull loose-get cam kit make sure your valve springs are set up to match cam, very important-its incredible what this cam does for your set up -sound is there but very good idle quality

MN RagTop · Sep 28, 2012

Thanks Darrell,
Are you saying the 461 heads are not a good choice or they are a good set for my application as is (no need to port and polish?)

gphusker · Sep 28, 2012

I think they are a decent factory head. However there are much better options out there.

Eleanor's Nemesis · Sep 28, 2012

For 350 hp with a 327 the 461 heads will be fine. I would call either Comp Cams or Bullet Cams and get one of the pro's to recommend one of their sticks.

Steiner · Sep 28, 2012

Here's some good reading on some "old school" builds. L79 hydraulic cam for the 327/350hp build looks good.

http://www.superchevy.com/technical..._heads_valvetrain/sucp_1003_classic_chevy_small_block_dyno_testing/viewall.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical...vetrain/completebuilds_testing/sucp_0909_chevy_small_block_testing/viewall.html

John65nova · Sep 28, 2012

I'm running the following hyd ft cam in my flat-top, 64cc head 327 with a Muncie M20 and 3.36 gears.

264/272 adv duration
214/218 @ 0.050"
0.450/0.460 lift
110 LSA
106 ICL

My cam is from Reed cams, which is now out of business. Cam works great. Just a slight hint of a lope at 750-800 rpm idle, and great power to 5500 rpm. Can easily pull it down to 1200 rpm in gear with no problems at all. Really nice street cam for a 327 and your gearing. I'd look for something similar from another manufacturer.

TJS69 · Sep 28, 2012

I had a very similar set up to what you have. If you just want to change the cam, go with the "stock" L79 cam. This is the 350HP 327 cam.

I have an Ultradyne 270h cam which was designed by Harold Brookshire. He also designed Comp. Cams 268 cam. These cams are too big for the '461 double hump heads ! These heads simply do not flow well enough for today's modern camshafts. The newer designed cams with the faster ramps and quick closings of the valves create too much velocity for the heads to flow well.

I changed out my '461's for a set of Edelbrock heads and now my cam can "work" like it is supposed to !

Another reason to stay with the L79 cam is because you are not running headers.

old heads - stay with the old cams

new heads - run whatever you want for a cam

I still have my 461's with Stainless Valves and screw in studs with only 1000 miles on them. No one seems to want them. Here is my add ! You can't rebuild yours for this price ! http://rmn.craigslist.org/pts/3287306605.html

Eleanor's Nemesis · Sep 28, 2012

If you go with an old OE designed cam from 50 years ago you will be leaving quite a bit on the table, imo.

TJS69 · Sep 28, 2012

Eleanor's Nemesis said:
If you go with an old OE designed cam from 50 years ago you will be leaving quite a bit on the table, imo.

No, if you use 45 year old heads with a newly designed cam, you will leave more on the table. Will it perform as good as a newly designed cam with newly designed heads ? NO !

If you know computers, it is like trying to run new software on an old 486 computer. It might work, but it WILL be slow !

I have experienced this with his exact same heads with the same engine ! And no it is not just valve springs.

Eleanor's Nemesis · Sep 29, 2012

TJS69 said:
No, if you use 45 year old heads with a newly designed cam, you will leave more on the table. Will it perform as good as a newly designed cam with newly designed heads ? NO !

If you know computers, it is like trying to run new software on an old 486 computer. It might work, but it WILL be slow !

I have experienced this with his exact same heads with the same engine ! And no it is not just valve springs.

Tom, you are a nice guy but I respectfully disagree with you.

A custom cam grind in a given 45 year old 327 will smoke an OE grind of that era.

Would you be interested in doing some sort of 327 w/ doublehumps engine challenge?

Let's build a 327 with 10-1 flat tops, single plane AL intake, stock double humps (I have 20 or so virgin castings), Q-jet or 750 vac Holley, and dyno it with your 45 year old OE grind. After we get numbers through the rpm range we will put my custom cam from Bullet or Comp in the motor, switch valve springs, and dyno it again and compare the numbers.

let me know if you are up for it. I have a good friend with an engine dyno, I'm sure we can use his services for a small fee. Whoever has the lower power producing cam pays the dyno bill and the cost of the engine build, winner keeps the spoils. I think we can do the engine for about 3K.

Would you be up for something like this?

And i know almost nothing about computers (LOL).

MN RagTop · Sep 29, 2012

I forgot to list that the car has power brakes.
It sounds like for my set up you guys think the L79 cam is the way to go, with I have a vaccum issue with this cam?
12 degrees advance for timing?

97Z4C · Sep 29, 2012

i totally agree with michael--i also have much dyno time on thses and 30yrs time of trying different combos u cant beat a bullet cam thats why most pro mods and outlaw cars use them

Eleanor's Nemesis · Sep 29, 2012

97Z4C said:
i totally agree with michael--i also have much dyno time on thses and 30yrs time of trying different combos u cant beat a bullet cam thats why most pro mods and outlaw cars use them

And lots of Stock Eliminator cars too, almost all of which use the factory OEM heads and intakes without much modification (multi angle VJs). I've got Bullet sticks in all 3 of my 327-Quadrajet engines for my '68 Caprice

TJS69 · Sep 29, 2012

I was talking of an off the shelf cam. Not a custom ground cam. I would love to see a dyno test between an L79 cam and a modern Comp. Cams 268H, in an engine with the above specs. I have no experience with bullet cams. I very much doubt the OP of this thread was thinking of even purchasing a custom ground cam. All your post mentioned was to Contact Comp cams or bullet cams and ask them. Comp Cams will just pick out an off the shelf cam, that is usually too big for the application.

I believed, before I experienced this, that a new modern day cam with 45+ year new technology would be the way to go. WRONG ! I would not buy a bullet cam without a written guarantee that they would pay for the install of a different cam, if I was not satisfied with what they sold me.

This is a mild street engine of about 350 HP. It is not a 1000 hp racing engine.

68rs406 · Sep 29, 2012

Eleanor's Nemesis said:
Tom, you are a nice guy but I respectfully disagree with you.

A custom cam grind in a given 45 year old 327 will smoke an OE grind of that era.

Would you be interested in doing some sort of 327 w/ doublehumps engine challenge?

Let's build a 327 with 10-1 flat tops, single plane AL intake, stock double humps (I have 20 or so virgin castings), Q-jet or 750 vac Holley, and dyno it with your 45 year old OE grind. After we get numbers through the rpm range we will put my custom cam from Bullet or Comp in the motor, switch valve springs, and dyno it again and compare the numbers.

let me know if you are up for it. I have a good friend with an engine dyno, I'm sure we can use his services for a small fee. Whoever has the lower power producing cam pays the dyno bill and the cost of the engine build, winner keeps the spoils. I think we can do the engine for about 3K.

Would you be up for something like this?

And i know almost nothing about computers (LOL).

X 1000! Exactly right and well put. I would lay cash on that bet, new technology FTW.

There is absolutely no rationale to using an old cam with old style heads, and to compare them to a computer is really so apples to oranges it's not even funny. Cylinder heads flow air, nothing has changed about that, some flow better some flow worse, but a well designed cam will optimize each set of heads and engine as a package.

There is nothing whatsoever about an old cam design that makes it better suited for an old style head than a modern cam design. It's just an old cam design. Lobe designs have come a long way since the 60's and 70's.

Look at it this way, to say a 40 year old cam works better is saying camshaft technology has stood still all these years, an engine is still an airpump and always will be, better heads are still being built, but a good cam can still be made for an old cylinder head platform, purely based only on improving technology of spring and lobe designs.

Call Bullet, Crower, Isky, or Comp even and get a reccomendation for a cam for your motor, and it will have better manners and make more power.

I appreciate your opinion Tom, but there is no way you will convince me of it. An old design will work for sure, and the OP may love it even, but considering the cost of a new design cam will be the same as an old copy, why leave power on the table?

68rs406 · Sep 29, 2012

TJS69 said:
I was talking of an off the shelf cam. Not a custom ground cam.

I would put a properly matched modern shelf cam up to a 45 year old cam

Click to expand...

Comp Cams will just pick out an off the shelf cam, that is usually too big for the application.

Thats probably true, and why Comp would be the last one I called. Bullet is going to cost a bit more possibly, but Crower wouldn't, thats who would be my choice for a shelf grind

Click to expand...

This is a mild street engine of about 350 HP. It is not a 1000 hp racing engine.

That doesn't matter, whatever the goal is there is a cam designed to optimize the package, a modern cam that is. An air pump is an air pump.
There are countless guys running in stock classes that barely make 350 horse because of restrictions, I will lay cash on the table you won't find 40 year old cam grinds in any of the guys cars that are winning.

Click to expand...

I know you are passionate about your opinion and respect that, but it just doesn't hold water in my opinion. Care to agree to disagree? :yes:

TJS69 · Sep 29, 2012

I am sorry Sean, you are wrong !

They design the new cams for new heads. That is period. Most cam manufacturers could care less about 40+ year old heads. I have said this before... I have experienced this. The cam in my Camaro is an Ultradyne 270H. My engine builder thought he was as smart as you and put in this cam. I talked with Harold Brookshire (via email) and asked him why this cam worked like crap. He tried to give me an excuse that the cam was not degreed properly. Well, years later after reading about this exact problem I decided to install new heads. I installed Edelbrock E-streets and now it runs very well. I have proven this theory and other's have done the same !

The E-streets are not a high power racing head. There are many much better flowing heads that can be used with these cams.

Your inability to understand what I am talking about is humorous. If you experienced it you might be able to figure it out. Since you know it all, I am sure you already know this. I wasn't talking to you and I could care less what you think. I am done talking to you and if the OP wants some proven advice, he can PM me.

jeff swisher · Sep 29, 2012

If you are up to porting the heads yourself than by all means do a bowl clean up and play with the short turn on those heads.
Install a 268H or the Xe268h either way you will be very happy.

I built a 327 for a buddy with flat tops and the XE268H and it flat moved in his 66 vette with 4 speed and 336 gears power brakes were fine.
performer rpm intake and 750 edelbrock. 13 second ride.

It really is quite easy to duplicate.
He just had another 327 built..he was not using a good enough oil and got too much heat going and ruined the block and cam.

He now just today dynoed his new 327+.030" bore
It has 180 afr's http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-916/
and a set of keith black flat tops and a comp 270 roller...and the same performer rpm intake and 750 edelbrock(afb)

The results were a flat TQ curve 370LBft up to 3700rpm where the secondaries came in and then the TQ went to 410...max HP was 419 at 5800rpm....
What an awesome engine for a tad over 327 cubes..They dynoed a 383 with ported double humps that made 45lb ft more TQ and less that 20HP more..same camshaft..
I know nothing of the port job on the old iron heads though...

327 cam advise

MN RagTop

arocars

97Z4C

MN RagTop

gphusker

Eleanor's Nemesis

Steiner

John65nova

TJS69

Eleanor's Nemesis

TJS69

Eleanor's Nemesis

MN RagTop

97Z4C

Eleanor's Nemesis

TJS69

68rs406

68rs406

TJS69

jeff swisher

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