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Air Gap Intake on a Street Car

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#21 ·
yeah Q jet AG/Holly 750

Didn't hear part about AG being port matched to heads. My take is it was as out of the box.

The other video is just some guy saying what he thought (more along the lines Edelbrock put out AG as a way to market another intake) not any A/B test

Principal purpose of an AG is to keep lifter valley oil heat away (read reduce it, not eliminate heat) from intake runners and in the opening of the dual plane Eddy AG they notch the divider, and that point noted and tested against the standard RPM intake.

The people involved in the link and method of testing on dyno are quite competent, Steve being the dyno guy and tuner at West Tech. Much later episode of Engine Masters goes into a broader comparison of manifold testing with Eddy AG showing + results.

My point is there are no disadvantages and, according to dyno testing, the AG shows significant power gain in the meat of the curve vs non AG. Using spacers on intakes also generally is a HP increase

Not saying the Eddy AG is the end all be all intake but certainly no downside for a street car and arguably a better performing intake than non AG.

Relative to OP's ?, there is no downside to his intake regarding tuning.
 
#22 · (Edited)
SoCal805 said:
yeah Q jet AG/Holly 750

Didn't hear part about AG being port matched to heads. My take is it was as out of the box.

The other video is just some guy saying what he thought (more along the lines Edelbrock put out AG as a way to market another intake) not any A/B test
Click to expand...
The other video also mentions a Hot Rod magazine test of a built bbc where there was only 4 hp difference in the 2 manifold's on that motor.
I can't find that video atm.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
SoCal805 said:
OP

Your knockoff air gap will be just fine with your BPE 383.

A vacuum gage, timing light and ideally the ability to read AF ratio are the tools needed to dial in "tuning". You can buy tuning kits for the specific carb you have to make power and fuel changes. They typically come with a grid showing what combo of jets, etc that make more power to go with.

Mr Ray does have good info regarding distributor adjusting relative to controlling VA but is often abrasive to people using part types he does not like

A newer episode of Engine Masters also compares the Edelbrock Air Gap to other manifolds with similar results
Click to expand...

Yes Sir. read your next post after this one too. I do have a very nice timing light and a new large diameter vacuum gauge. AFR gauge still in the box but will be installed soon.

Right now I am sidetracked with a console gauge rebuild and all the additional problems that has lead into (new carpet - if you know you know). Once that is all put back together I am back on the engine tuning.

I bit the bullet and ordered a Progression Ignition distributor, it is installed and engine running. There is a learning curve to tuning this too. But making changes to everything, including all the vacuum advance settings, can all be done electronically (another item most love or hate). I also bit the bullet and bought a custom carb, supposedly set up and bench flowed tailored to my engine build. So far, I think it is set up very close, throttle response is very crisp. Hopefully I don't have too much to dial in. I do have an AFR gauge but it's not installed yet. I have things pretty close, or at least I think I do, enough to get on the road reliably/safely. Once all this work is buttoned up, it will be on to exhaust work and I will have the AFR bung welded in and will fine tune the carb when I have accurate data to work with. I can read a spark plug to some degree, but there is a bit of Gypsy Magic to it I don't fully understand.

I am happy with the AG intake. I believe it could be cause for some of the cold natured attitude this car has, but does seem to perform well. Engine pulls hard from just over 2000 rpms to around 5500 rpms (and it looks cool). For the RPM range, this is the best I can tell right now - which leads to another issue I have... my tach isn't reading accurately. I am not sure if a resistor in the tach feed will fix it, or if the tach needs rebuild/replace. I do know as the RPMs increase, the readings get further off, so my hope is a resistor will "tune" it back closer to reading correctly. I have several different resistors and will try different ones looking for the best result.

All in all, I think the 383 is a good fit in a 1st gen Camaro street car (for my needs anyway), super flat and wide torque curve puts a smile on my face at almost any RPM.

Dang I got a lot going on with this car... the reason I have started so many threads, and could easily start another dozen or so, but I don't want to wear out my welcome here. You guys are awesome. I hope I can contribute in the future. I am like a kid with this car, soaking up info like a sponge and having fun doing it!
 
#24 ·
I have no experience with the Progression Ignition dizzy but understand it is externally controlled to allow the various setting, relative to timing/VA.

Tip in bog when cold can also be a choke issue but can also certainly be timing and or VA cause also.

You really want to get the tach sorted so you know what RPM you are driving at for the various driving conditions. If your dizzy APP/Programmer can log RPM that will help but IMHO you want to visually see RPM if for anything monitoring self tranny shift RPM. AF monitoring at idle, part throttle and WOT will show what adjustments need to be made with carb which may involve squirters, jets, etc. All part of he tuning dance.

BPE has its stuff pretty dialed in regarding what plug to use although a to rich carb setting can distort that and make the right plug read rich visually.

Sounds like you have a plan and will get it all dialed in
 
#26 ·
Here is an excellent article on Edelbrock manifolds.

Edelbrock's Air Gap Performer Intake Manifold - The Street Game (motortrend.com)

[The Air Gap Difference Exactly what is the Air Gap's air gap worth? Temperature testing with an infrared heat gun revealed much. First, the heat soak from a hot engine will, in about 10 minutes, bring the runners of the Air Gap manifold up to that of a non-air gap one. Under full-power conditions, the runners of either type of manifold drop and stabilize after about 15-20 seconds at full throttle, but the Air Gap manifold drops (depending on ambient conditions) about 20 degrees more at 2,500 rpm and about 15 more at 5,500 rpm. The net worth of this in output is about 6 lbs.-ft. at 2,500 rpm and about 4 lbs.-ft. at 5,500. Nevertheless, there is an overriding concern here. If the carb being used has inadequate fuel atomization, the cooler runners can actually detract from output, so be sure to use a carb that does a good job on mixture preparation.]
 
#28 ·
My name is NOT "Dude", nor other defamations, it is either David, or Dave.

The decades I have been doing this have taken me a lot of places most of you have no clue abut, and problems you have even less clue on how to do it right.

Now, NOBODY, even me, is forcing you to believe the truth, this is for you to hands-on confirm, or, deny, with your own experiences, NOT those of so-called engineers on websites.

Yes, I am a full graduate engineer, but of that, I am also a hands-on one, not a paper, or computer only one. I tried it, worked it out, exactly as all of you should NOT just read some over hype sales ad with one of the Ron Family telling it like it isn't. There are one heck of a lot of people in the Ron family, ALL of them have the same first name....Mo. Mo-Ron. I ain't one of them.
 
#31 ·
Ironically Engine Masters had a episode on today showing single plane and dual plane Air Gap intake. Multiple dyno pulls, even checking valve lash.

Consensus was for a street car the dual plane air gap with a 1" open spacer made the most power through "most of the meat" of the RPM range. Single plade with 4 hole spacer made the most up top

Opinion was for street car go dual plane, 1" spacer made the most power through the RPM range. 1/4mi use, go single with 4 hole 1" spacer.

Surprising how much a $15 spacer made.

Dolsich, Friberger and Steve from Westech are quite qualified and spend a lot of time building and racing motors.

There are other opinions regarding AG although specific data shown on the show vs critical comments vs hard data made by others for me has more weight.

No I don't sell intakes:cool:
 
#32 ·
SoCal805 said:
Ironically Engine Masters had a episode on today showing single plane and dual plane Air Gap intake. Multiple dyno pulls, even checking valve lash.

Consensus was for a street car the dual plane air gap with a 1" open spacer made the most power through "most of the meat" of the RPM range. Single plade with 4 hole spacer made the most up top

Opinion was for street car go dual plane, 1" spacer made the most power through the RPM range. 1/4mi use, go single with 4 hole 1" spacer.

Surprising how much a $15 spacer made.

Dolsich, Friberger and Steve from Westech are quite qualified and spend a lot of time building and racing motors.

There are other opinions regarding AG although specific data shown on the show vs critical comments vs hard data made by others for me has more weight.

No I don't sell intakes:cool:
Click to expand...
I pulled my factory CNC port matched Vic Jr off
After a couple of back to back autocross races.
I run the RPM air gap with a 1” spacer.
Actually now a 1/2” and a 1/2” NOS spacer on top.
The bottom pull was noticeable, with the dual plane.
I’ll drop the Vic JR back on when I go to a solid roller and 7000rpm. And MPFI.
No point in a single plane unless over 6000+ often
 
#33 ·
SoCal805 said:
Ironically Engine Masters had a episode on today showing single plane and dual plane Air Gap intake. Multiple dyno pulls, even checking valve lash.

Consensus was for a street car the dual plane air gap with a 1" open spacer made the most power through "most of the meat" of the RPM range. Single plade with 4 hole spacer made the most up top

Opinion was for street car go dual plane, 1" spacer made the most power through the RPM range. 1/4mi use, go single with 4 hole 1" spacer.

Surprising how much a $15 spacer made.

Dolsich, Friberger and Steve from Westech are quite qualified and spend a lot of time building and racing motors.

There are other opinions regarding AG although specific data shown on the show vs critical comments vs hard data made by others for me has more weight.

No I don't sell intakes:cool:
Click to expand...
I just hate absolutes. It depends on your street car. If your smallblock street car makes 450HP or less you are probably correct. If it makes 500HP or more it probably needs a single plane.

 
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Discussion starter · #34 ·
Wow, I was trying to be nice... my vocabulary is what it is. I have never seen so much passion about an intake manifold. My car came with the intake on it, I am just trying to make the best of it. I considered swapping on aluminum heads, roller rockers, and a new intake. But its fine the way it is. When I upgrade I'll just replace the engine. I sincerely appreciate the all the feedback here, defiantly some good educational info here and I am soaking it all in.

I did watch the Engine Masters episode. That is my favorite show on TV and pretty much the only one I actually watch. I am not a huge Friberger fan, but he does know his stuff, and he has the ability to regurgitate a lot of info very quickly. I am running a decent spacer.
 
#35 ·
ridesdirt said:
Wow, I was trying to be nice... my vocabulary is what it is. I have never seen so much passion about an intake manifold. My car came with the intake on it, I am just trying to make the best of it. I considered swapping on aluminum heads, roller rockers, and a new intake. But its fine the way it is. When I upgrade I'll just replace the engine. I sincerely appreciate the all the feedback here, defiantly some good educational info here and I am soaking it all in.

I did watch the Engine Masters episode. That is my favorite show on TV and pretty much the only one I actually watch. I am not a huge Friberger fan, but he does know his stuff, and he has the ability to regurgitate a lot of info very quickly. I am running a decent spacer.
Click to expand...
I have engine masters on in my garage/shop often. I have motortrend service watch races and things.
But engine masters is the only “show” I normally watch. I even got burned out on road kill a couple years ago.
 
#36 ·
It's Steve Brule on Engine Masters that really knows his stuff and can explain specifically why a part type and changes to it effect the dyno pulls. Dolsich is also very knowledgeable. Freiburger does a good job simplyfing the explanations. The test procedures are diligent in keeping everything else the same comparing one intake, head, carb, cam etc the same to compare results. Showing where power and torque come in for each. AF ratios for each cyl.

Interesting the AF ratios balanced better with a dual plane with the spacer on each cylinder. Opinion was air pulses from engine liked the open spacer even though it is on a dual plane intake.

While my 67 is a carb motor but I have a 383 FI computer-controlled car I drag raced for years on Super Chevy tour and many local strips in the western states. Data logging to see WWTF so many things were showing, making changes, more 1/4 mi runs. Rinse & repeat until everything is as good as it can get with that motor.

IMHO while dyno tuning is a very good tool, 1/4 mi runs with data logs then make changes when needed and run those is the real deal
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Good points, yes Brule is defiantly a smart guy. Dolsich is awesome, he is my favorite one of the three.

I like Junkyard Gold too, but I think they canceled that one. It is/was my Sunday morning coffee show.
 
#38 ·
SoCal805 said:
It's Steve Brule on Engine Masters that really knows his stuff and can explain specifically why a part type and changes to it effect the dyno pulls. Dolsich is also very knowledgeable. Freiburger does a good job simplyfing the explanations. The test procedures are diligent in keeping everything else the same comparing one intake, head, carb, cam etc the same to compare results. Showing where power and torque come in for each. AF ratios for each cyl.

Interesting the AF ratios balanced better with a dual plane with the spacer on each cylinder. Opinion was air pulses from engine liked the open spacer even though it is on a dual plane intake.

While my 67 is a carb motor but I have a 383 FI computer-controlled car I drag raced for years on Super Chevy tour and many local strips in the western states. Data logging to see WWTF so many things were showing, making changes, more 1/4 mi runs. Rinse & repeat until everything is as good as it can get with that motor.

IMHO while dyno tuning is a very good tool, 1/4 mi runs with data logs then make changes when needed and run those is the real deal
Click to expand...
I agree, dyno tune gets you the best possible starting point.
Then, tune fir your climate and use is the next step.
 
#39 ·
ridesdirt said:
Wow, I was trying to be nice... my vocabulary is what it is. I have never seen so much passion about an intake manifold. My car came with the intake on it, I am just trying to make the best of it. I considered swapping on aluminum heads, roller rockers, and a new intake. But its fine the way it is. When I upgrade I'll just replace the engine. I sincerely appreciate the all the feedback here, defiantly some good educational info here and I am soaking it all in.

I did watch the Engine Masters episode. That is my favorite show on TV and pretty much the only one I actually watch. I am not a huge Friberger fan, but he does know his stuff, and he has the ability to regurgitate a lot of info very quickly. I am running a decent spacer.
Click to expand...
I have a progression ignition distributor and really like it. I have found a curve for my 383 that works well for me. I have Brodix CNC 180 CC runner heads, 10.75:1 compression, 555/544 , 230/235 on 110 roller cam, roller rockers, AED HP/HO 750 double pumper carb, Edelbrock Air Gap and run a 1 inch spacer. I live in Tucson AZ and the engine is cold natured in the winter months and spring summer time it’s just fine. My engine likes a little heat in it, which I attribute to the intake needing to get warmed up. I’ll add my car is a street car and does not see the drag strip. It see plenty plenty of fun on the street and back roads where I live.
This is a curve I use and like. My car comes on hard from the bottom end pulls to the 6200 rev limiter with no issues at all. It’s just a street car and I might have 400-425 HP maybe 450 torque engine? Mine is not fast but it sure is fun. Lots of cars out there much faster than me, but do they drive them 8,000 miles or more per year? Built
Mine to drive and have blast while doing it.

Image

Image
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
@Joe Harrison

Thank you, I am just beginning to mess with the timing curves. It may be a couple weeks before I can actually get some miles on it. Your cam is a little more aggressive than mine, I have a flat tappet, but similar set up.

I have the seats out right now. And I am working on some door gap issues... ugggg
 
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