Ok guys I was locked in on an ls motor. At first it didnt matter what ls I had, an ls1 would have been just fine. After examining the whole gambit of ls options I came to the conclusion that I really didnt want a junkyard motor, my preference would be a crate ls3. The problem is after attending a few car shows this year I was kinda turned off that everyone has ls motors now. It got me thinking a big block stroker would something to explore. In the mopar community the consensus is the 440 stroker us king, thats what I was into prior to owning my camaro. Im kinda in the dark on the specifics of chevy strokers in general, what are the favorites, what creates the best power, what revs the best and so on. I was hoping you guys could give me some ideas, I think a 454 stroker twin turbo'd would kick a**! I guess what I want is something extremely streetable, a sleeper, somewhere between 550-650 rwhp 600-700 fpt and get around 18 mpg or better. Trans would most likely be an auto with overdrive and 411 gears. If I did go stroker I would dress it up with custom valve covers, custom air cleaner cover and so on. A efi big block stroker twin turbo has even crossed my mind. What are realistic power expectations could I have, does anyone have both personally to tell me what they think? What auto trans options do I have, and what do you guys think this would cost? Thanks again guys, just putting out some feelers and getting ideas for my future build.
Ls motor or stroker bbc/sbc?
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69GreyGhost
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I can read your sig just fine. Not thin skinned at all. I was getting sniped at and thought you were continuing. If I misread your post's intent, I apologize.
Too M0ondoggy, that is a sweet setup. I see nothing wrong with the looks of that engine at all. Only time you see it is when the hood is open. When is that? When you're working on it or trying to impress somebody at a boring car show. Form follows function but everybody who likes those bellybutton engines with the same chrome valve covers and air cleaner would disagree.
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Greyghost, Don't let a few bad apples shy you away from learning. Everyone here had to start learning at some point. Looks like some of us forgot about that. Not one person on this board knows it all. Most here are more than willing to help get you pointed in teh right direction. Just remember there are almost always more than one way to get the job done.
For those with LS engines, I was not knocking you or them. They can work very well. If that's what you like or what you had available, more power to you. It's not my style to knock someone elses build/car, etc.. I can understand the attraction, what I get tired of hearing (usually by those that don't even have one) is how fast and bullet proof they are. They can be very fast and can support quite a bit of HP. That doesn't mean a BBC or SBC are no longer useful or can't make power.
For those with LS engines, I was not knocking you or them. They can work very well. If that's what you like or what you had available, more power to you. It's not my style to knock someone elses build/car, etc.. I can understand the attraction, what I get tired of hearing (usually by those that don't even have one) is how fast and bullet proof they are. They can be very fast and can support quite a bit of HP. That doesn't mean a BBC or SBC are no longer useful or can't make power.
Royce, never said they couldn't....just, for one to do so it would be pretty much un-streetable N/A and say 600HP+.
ElMule....great example of street worthy...1000+HP with twins, but I don't think one thing was production GM SBC.
Wow, this really deteriorated... Sorry Greyghost. Bottom line, stick around there is lots of good infor to be found on here.
As for the LS deal, again, I have absolutely nothing against them and totally understand the appeal, it's just not what appeals to me. No offense intended to the guys running them.
I don't care what anyone uses, I really don't care if I see a Ford in a Chevy even, as long as it's done well I admire the work and effort spent. I like Fords, Chevy's, some imports and even some Mopars..
It's all cool to me.
That said, with all the available modern parts available for SBC or BBC they can be as good as an LS in basically any department, it's all in the build. I'm not saying a factory motor from a wrecking yard 66 Impala (good luck finding one ), I'm talking Gen 1 small block parts, any of the millions out there.
And Chet.... whatever man. You appear to be one of the many internet keyboard cowboys out there, willing to tell us all about you many endeavors.
Old fuddy duddy? Lol, I have been called a lot of stuff, but not that. I guess I'm in my 40's, thats pretty old to a 16 year old, are you 16? Too funny.
And what makes you think I run a 406?
As for the LS deal, again, I have absolutely nothing against them and totally understand the appeal, it's just not what appeals to me. No offense intended to the guys running them.
I don't care what anyone uses, I really don't care if I see a Ford in a Chevy even, as long as it's done well I admire the work and effort spent. I like Fords, Chevy's, some imports and even some Mopars..
It's all cool to me.That said, with all the available modern parts available for SBC or BBC they can be as good as an LS in basically any department, it's all in the build. I'm not saying a factory motor from a wrecking yard 66 Impala (good luck finding one
), I'm talking Gen 1 small block parts, any of the millions out there.And Chet.... whatever man. You appear to be one of the many internet keyboard cowboys out there, willing to tell us all about you many endeavors.
Old fuddy duddy? Lol, I have been called a lot of stuff, but not that. I guess I'm in my 40's, thats pretty old to a 16 year old, are you 16? Too funny.
And what makes you think I run a 406?
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Well, this thread was exhausting.
1. Great question. Maybe not stated artfully, but a 7th grader could have figured out what the op was after. He stated clearly:
"I guess what I want is something extremely streetable, a sleeper, somewhere between 550-650 rwhp 600-700 fpt and get around 18 mpg or better."
2. He wasn't sure how to achieve that. That is what makes it a great question.
3. What a shame some have to denigrate others just to make themselves feel better. I am guessing either inferiority complex or NLDS. Either way, sure makes this discussion less enjoyable.
4. To the OP: Can you get 650 RWHP and 18 mpg? Yes it can be done, and it can be done as many have pointed out with SBC, BBC, SB2.2 or LS platforms. At this point it is probably more of a personal preference than any other single factor. IMHO, I would dismiss the BBC because of weight. I have driven small block first gens and big blocks one right after the other. The BBC is just too heavy. Again, jmo.
I saw very little discussion about transmission choices, but to achieve your mileage goal you will have to have some kind of over drive, probably a good 6 speed.
You MIGHT make it without forced induction, but much more likely to succeed with forced induction. My personal preference here is turbos. My 215 cubic inch motor makes a good 300 at the rear wheels at 15 psi on pump gas. (It is a bimmer, so maybe that makes me a snob, even though I bought it years ago out of a salvage yard with the engine in the trunk, and it now has about 306,000 miles on it). However, I only get about 22 on the highway with a 3.26 gear and slightly overdriven fifth gear. It is also heavier than a first Gen Camaro. It is also 30 year old technology. Lots of room for improvement. Also, if you go turbo, the turbo(s) help quiet the exhaust, so it adds a little to the sleeper factor. My car is unbelieivably quiet. And there are no parasitic losses as with a belt driven blower, so normally fuel economy will be slightly better, all other factors being equal.
If you don't want to "reinvent the wheel" just keep a lookout for cars that have achieved your goals. They are out there. Copy what they did.
I am guessing (and mind you this is only a guess) that there is someone out there with a 5.3 truck motor that went twin turbo, used the original FI harness with some upgraded injectors etc., and had it properly tuned for the set up. I don't believe you would even need a cam change. Might not achieve your goals in every respect, but you could get close.
If you are willing to live with "just" 500 horses, perhaps a Z06 take out motor would work best. I have a buddy with a Z06 six speed (maybe they all are, I don't know) and he gets 28 mpg at 75. Fifth and Sixth are overdrive. Of course a first gen Camaro isn't as slippery, so it won't do quite that well.
Many ways to get there. There is no "best". Pick one and by all means have some fun with it.
Good luck.
1. Great question. Maybe not stated artfully, but a 7th grader could have figured out what the op was after. He stated clearly:
"I guess what I want is something extremely streetable, a sleeper, somewhere between 550-650 rwhp 600-700 fpt and get around 18 mpg or better."
2. He wasn't sure how to achieve that. That is what makes it a great question.
3. What a shame some have to denigrate others just to make themselves feel better. I am guessing either inferiority complex or NLDS. Either way, sure makes this discussion less enjoyable.
4. To the OP: Can you get 650 RWHP and 18 mpg? Yes it can be done, and it can be done as many have pointed out with SBC, BBC, SB2.2 or LS platforms. At this point it is probably more of a personal preference than any other single factor. IMHO, I would dismiss the BBC because of weight. I have driven small block first gens and big blocks one right after the other. The BBC is just too heavy. Again, jmo.
I saw very little discussion about transmission choices, but to achieve your mileage goal you will have to have some kind of over drive, probably a good 6 speed.
You MIGHT make it without forced induction, but much more likely to succeed with forced induction. My personal preference here is turbos. My 215 cubic inch motor makes a good 300 at the rear wheels at 15 psi on pump gas. (It is a bimmer, so maybe that makes me a snob, even though I bought it years ago out of a salvage yard with the engine in the trunk, and it now has about 306,000 miles on it). However, I only get about 22 on the highway with a 3.26 gear and slightly overdriven fifth gear. It is also heavier than a first Gen Camaro. It is also 30 year old technology. Lots of room for improvement. Also, if you go turbo, the turbo(s) help quiet the exhaust, so it adds a little to the sleeper factor. My car is unbelieivably quiet. And there are no parasitic losses as with a belt driven blower, so normally fuel economy will be slightly better, all other factors being equal.
If you don't want to "reinvent the wheel" just keep a lookout for cars that have achieved your goals. They are out there. Copy what they did.
I am guessing (and mind you this is only a guess) that there is someone out there with a 5.3 truck motor that went twin turbo, used the original FI harness with some upgraded injectors etc., and had it properly tuned for the set up. I don't believe you would even need a cam change. Might not achieve your goals in every respect, but you could get close.
If you are willing to live with "just" 500 horses, perhaps a Z06 take out motor would work best. I have a buddy with a Z06 six speed (maybe they all are, I don't know) and he gets 28 mpg at 75. Fifth and Sixth are overdrive. Of course a first gen Camaro isn't as slippery, so it won't do quite that well.
Many ways to get there. There is no "best". Pick one and by all means have some fun with it.
Good luck.
What a clever boy! He changed his sig. I really don't care what you run. I really don't care about you. In your forties? You still have much to learn, young padawan. But I would find you too insolent to bother to teach you. Enjoy your earned spot on my ignore list.Wow, this really deteriorated... Sorry Greyghost. Bottom line, stick around there is lots of good infor to be found on here.
As for the LS deal, again, I have absolutely nothing against them and totally understand the appeal, it's just not what appeals to me. No offense intended to the guys running them.
I don't care what anyone uses, I really don't care if I see a Ford in a Chevy even, as long as it's done well I admire the work and effort spent. I like Fords, Chevy's, some imports and even some Mopars..
That said, with all the available modern parts available for SBC or BBC they can be as good as an LS in basically any department, it's all in the build. I'm not saying a factory motor from a wrecking yard 66 Impala (good luck finding one
And Chet.... whatever man. You appear to be one of the many internet keyboard cowboys out there, willing to tell us all about you many endeavors.
Old fuddy duddy? Lol, I have been called a lot of stuff, but not that. I guess I'm in my 40's, thats pretty old to a 16 year old, are you 16? Too funny.
And what makes you think I run a 406?
Why dont you get a ceramic block to go with your carbon fiber parts, AND then ask how do I (you) buy cheep disc brakes. Thank Goodness you never had a real car. I don't know if you have more money than brains. I still have My Camaros. cars, came I DAD'S name I have all papers. Just rember if FROGS ha wings they wount bump there behinds as offen, NOW I stepped on my self. IF so friends take care!!!
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Lynn I appreciate your suggestions, I may just go 6.0 overdrive tranny 323/355 and turbo it at some point. Thats kinda what I figured Lynn, I wonder if I should still stroke it?
And Chet, could you ignore me too? I would appreciate it. I think it would further my build by light years.
Really pretty sad post to say the least.:sad: We all learn as some point.
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I wish negative peeps would find a thread to contaminate. I think many people have come with really helpful info other than a few bad apples.
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4,866 Posts
Sean - we continue to talk at cross purposes. I said that you can't beat the LS platform (in the Chevy lineup - I'm not sure what Ford engines have to do with this conversation) for "power, strength, reliability, drivability, fuel economy and (taking all of that into account) overall cost effectiveness."I know some facts Mike, I have been around fast cars and racing for a long time, I have worked on some pretty fast cars, owned a few reasonably fast cars, and spent countless hours at race tracks watching and working on fast cars. Even have driven some of my own slow junk.
This topic is silly, the only way you could compare the two motor platforms would be set guidelines and watch the competition, the motor that wins under one set of guidelines would surely lose under another.
So what? But to throw a blanket statement that an LS is simply better at everything ultimately is wrong.
I'm not talking about a set of 186 heads, but there are so many sets of great heads for an "outdated" platform, non wedge heads, wedge heads, various valve angles, canted, non canted etc. and they can be had used for very reasonable, heck, my SB2.2 heads are an older style gen one, pre LS, and I guarantee I will put them up against an LS head. They can be had used for about 2 grand complete. And for you LS guys you can put them on a "junkyard" gen 1 with just a cam and piston swap.
Obviously a modern FI system is better than a carb for fuel mileage, but you could buy about a dozen different versions used and accomplish the same thing.
But whats the point? Build what you want, all I'm saying is the LS is not the end all be all of the motor world.
Heck, if moden is your thing, Ford is killing GM with that right now, they threw pushrods in the dumpster 15+ years ago, I think there is a good number of Ford guys that will be able to make the same claims as the LS guys do? So? To each their own, and no single platform is the "right" way to go in my opinion.
And Mike, if you think I was "insulting those that disagree", you may want to go back and note the generous use of smilies, you LS guys sure are a sensitive crowd.
I didn't say you can't beat the LS platform for power, or for strength, or for reliability or for drivability or for fuel economy - but building an SBC or BBC that beats an LS engine for all of power, strength, reliability, drivability, fuel economy and (taking all of that into account) overall cost effectiveness isn't going to be done without a lot of very expensive unobtanium parts.
Yes the SB2.2 may outflow a set of ported LS3/L92 heads, but you've just spent $2,000 on used heads. And yes, as I noted in the part of my post you elected not to quote, you can get an EFI system for an SBC or BBC, but you've just spent another $3,000 before tuning, plus the cost to add injector bosses to the SB2.2 intake for EFI) and then you've got to find a competent tuner for your aftermarket EFI system. So you're in your "LS engine beater" for at least $5,000 before you've even thought about a short block, cam and valve train and oil system.
The LS will have roller lifters and roller trunion rockers. That's going to cost you another $400 and $300 or more, respectively, for your SBC/BBC. Add in an aftermarket block (to match the LS block's strength), good crankshaft, rods, pistons etc. and machining, and you're looking at an $9,000 plus engine which still is going to have a hard time competing with the LS in each category of power, strength, reliability, drivability, fuel economy and (taking all of that into account) overall cost effectiveness.
This is not about race motors, it's about street motors - and the street motors we see today are worlds better than the SBC/BBC. It's only common sense that when you start with a more capable and well rounded base (an LS engine) it's going to be easier to build a more capable and well rounded modified engine.
Again, it's not power, or strength, or reliability or drivability or fuel economy, it's all of power, strength, reliability, drivability, fuel economy and overall cost effectiveness.
I agree, people should build what they want - but the easiest and cheapest way to good power, and strength, and reliability, and drivability and fuel economy is though an LS engine.
Chet, I'm going to go ahead and say it, you are a freaking moron, and act like a 12 year old. I'm sure your a real tough guy.
I have seen so many of your posts and thought wow, this guy is a douchebag. Well now I have said it openly, though you have proven my point very well, and anyone (besides you) feel free to jump in here and tell me I'm mistaken, I'll listen with an open mind....
And for the record I wish I had changed my signature, it's been "in the works" far too long, and who really gives a rats *** what I'm building anyway, Greyghost would have asked me if he wanted to know.
Thanks for you witty input however. :thumbsup:
Great well thought post Lynn, I think you summed it up very well.
Mike, (Mkelcy)
I understand where you are coming from, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. It all depends on the goals in my opinion.
I don't want to contribute any further to the mess this thread has become, but I do respect your opinion.
I understand where you are coming from, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. It all depends on the goals in my opinion.
I don't want to contribute any further to the mess this thread has become, but I do respect your opinion.
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Oh yeah, real ugly. And yes, if mileage AND drivability AND horsepower are all goals, then a carb is a huge step backward.This is ugly. LS7 in my 69. 635 HP in front of a T56 6 Speed.
Carb on an LS is just a major step backwards and IMHO and waste of time. While you're at it get rid of the power steering and disc brakes.
I'd go EFI on a ZZ502 if i didn't go LS.
Very cool car.
Can you point me to a thread with some more pics? Hate to hijack this one, but would like to see some pics.
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3,652 Posts
Anthony:
There was a great article in one of the old car magazines back in the 70's. Had something to do with the 10 most often made mistakes in hot rodding. What you are doing is hot rodding at its very core. Lucky you, you get to start with almost a clean slate.
I only remember one of the rules from that article. It is called "More's Law" and it is a killer long term. "If some is good, more is better". Gee, why won't my car idle with the Gigantor 909 camshaft. It worked great in my friend's race car.
Give you an example. Had a buddy who changed from 3.31 gears to 3.73 and couldn't believe the accelleration difference. So, was he happy? Of course not. Puts in a set of 4.56 gears and sells the 3.73's because they don't have enough "gitty up" for him.
That's fine if all you are doing is going 1/4 mile at a time. But... he ended up having to drive that car to college and back regularly (100 miles one way) for a year. To this day, he hates 4.56 gears.
There is a happy medium. I don't know if you need a stroker to get where you want to go. My only experience with an LS motor is driving my friend's Z06 and the Suburban I had with a 5.3. Never even worked on one. All I know is book lernin. I have seen some really great numbers. I don't know how many of those imploded after the first few runs. Maybe none.
So, I would suggest you find some guys who have accomplished what you want to do. See if stroking it was necessary. Also, I would urge you to make money a consideration. If you don't, it will get away from you in a hurry. Ask them what they would do different.
Once you decide to stroke it, you are opening Pandora's box. Custom pistons, clearance issues, getting it balanced.... Figure out what you think it will cost... and double it. Speed costs, and it goes up by the square.
Charley Lillard (Clill on this site) has a killer 69 with over 1,000 hp. But, and this is absolutely key, the rest of the car is enineered to match it. Roll cage; subframe upgrades, brakes, everything. It takes a lot of car to handle that much HP. Charley has posted the engine specs (I know, because I asked him to) a few years back. On a smaller scale.
As for final drive gearing, you probably want to wait until the engine is on the dyno and see where the torque curve is. But, with the 6 speeds (5th and 6th being od) you can normally go 3.73 without issues. That, however, should be the last piece of your puzzle.
Get some input from Vega$69. Looks like he has got something pretty darn close to what you want. See what gear he is running, and what chassis mods are in place. Lastly, see what mileage he is getting. He may have accomplished your goal. There is no shame in copying something that has been done correctly. Doesn't mean you can't deviate a little from what he did.
There was a great article in one of the old car magazines back in the 70's. Had something to do with the 10 most often made mistakes in hot rodding. What you are doing is hot rodding at its very core. Lucky you, you get to start with almost a clean slate.
I only remember one of the rules from that article. It is called "More's Law" and it is a killer long term. "If some is good, more is better". Gee, why won't my car idle with the Gigantor 909 camshaft. It worked great in my friend's race car.
Give you an example. Had a buddy who changed from 3.31 gears to 3.73 and couldn't believe the accelleration difference. So, was he happy? Of course not. Puts in a set of 4.56 gears and sells the 3.73's because they don't have enough "gitty up" for him.
That's fine if all you are doing is going 1/4 mile at a time. But... he ended up having to drive that car to college and back regularly (100 miles one way) for a year. To this day, he hates 4.56 gears.
There is a happy medium. I don't know if you need a stroker to get where you want to go. My only experience with an LS motor is driving my friend's Z06 and the Suburban I had with a 5.3. Never even worked on one. All I know is book lernin. I have seen some really great numbers. I don't know how many of those imploded after the first few runs. Maybe none.
So, I would suggest you find some guys who have accomplished what you want to do. See if stroking it was necessary. Also, I would urge you to make money a consideration. If you don't, it will get away from you in a hurry. Ask them what they would do different.
Once you decide to stroke it, you are opening Pandora's box. Custom pistons, clearance issues, getting it balanced.... Figure out what you think it will cost... and double it. Speed costs, and it goes up by the square.
Charley Lillard (Clill on this site) has a killer 69 with over 1,000 hp. But, and this is absolutely key, the rest of the car is enineered to match it. Roll cage; subframe upgrades, brakes, everything. It takes a lot of car to handle that much HP. Charley has posted the engine specs (I know, because I asked him to) a few years back. On a smaller scale.
As for final drive gearing, you probably want to wait until the engine is on the dyno and see where the torque curve is. But, with the 6 speeds (5th and 6th being od) you can normally go 3.73 without issues. That, however, should be the last piece of your puzzle.
Get some input from Vega$69. Looks like he has got something pretty darn close to what you want. See what gear he is running, and what chassis mods are in place. Lastly, see what mileage he is getting. He may have accomplished your goal. There is no shame in copying something that has been done correctly. Doesn't mean you can't deviate a little from what he did.
It really is just that simple. If you are starting from scratch right now, you are absolutely insane not to start with an LS. LS is to small block as small block is to flat head Ford.
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7,361 Posts
LSX 454 from GM....a crate motor making 641 H/P on the carb....truly a step back for sure!!
http://www.thechevroletcamaro.com/lsx.htm
This is the LSX plan I have for mine, just the big mega buck crate engine, I love the looks. I saw this one a while back and thought if I do one I am copying some of this
![Image]()
http://www.thechevroletcamaro.com/lsx.htm
This is the LSX plan I have for mine, just the big mega buck crate engine, I love the looks. I saw this one a while back and thought if I do one I am copying some of this
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394 Posts
Sean, I will have you know Chet is an ok guy just a lil immature emotionally
. Seriously tho Sean I appreciate your comments, you really added to the thread thanks!Lynn thanks, I appreciate what you have had to say, I am really gonna listen to you and try to address the points you made. Keep the love an info flowing please!:beers:
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