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Jim69

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Can someone tell me what the marks stand for? There's no numbers, just marks and a red (over heated?) square. I would like to know my engine's temperature while running.

Thanks

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Can someone tell me what the marks stand for? There's no numbers, just marks and a red (over heated?) square. I would like to know my engine's temperature while running.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
The best way IMHO is to get your hands on an infra -red thermometer and once your engine is up to normal operating temperature (where your console gauge usually registers), take a reading from the thermostat housing and make a mental note of it. Minor differences in the sending unit and the gauge itself can/will cause each setup to read slightly different but using the above method will show you exactly what temperature your engine is running at for the console gauge indication at the time you take the reading.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
But how do I know the temperature across the range of the guage? Can I extrapolate it?

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But how do I know the temperature across the range of the guage? Can I extrapolate it?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
I can't say if you could extrapolate it or not, I'm not sure the technology of the sending units and gauges back in the late 60's from the General were that hi-tech. They were better than the standard "idiot light" which by the time it lit was after the problem occurred. You could take multiple readings below normal to give an idea what the needle movement from the far left indicates but I wouldn't necessarily expect that to be a linear movement as far as temp steps go. Once you know what the usual operating temperature gauge position actually is by taking an IR reading, you know anything much beyond is going where you and your engine don't want to be and anything less indicates things aren't up to normal operating temp. Perhaps someone else will have additional information on this for you?
 
Somewhere on here there is a thread I remember reading that has the info your looking foror someone else may chime in but normal operating temp is right around 1/4 on the guage. I believe that the 1/4 mark was 180 degrees. For what its worth my Z always runs just skightly below 1/4 on the guage.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Mine stays right around a quarter. Sitting still she creeps a little past the quarter mark at which time the electric fans turn on and drop the needle just under the quarter mark at which point the fans shutoff.

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But how do I know the temperature across the range of the guage? Can I extrapolate it?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
From a purely theoretical standpoint...YES, if you understand Ohm's Law and the theory behind the operation of a Wheatstone bridge using the balanced/unbalanced bridge concept, plus the operation of the D'Arsonval gauge movement technology of the "old" days. The design of the original factory circuit matched the gauge readout with the change in resistance of the water temp sensor mounted in the engine. Using the factory resistance specifications of each component, the theoretical location of the gauge needle at the exact center of the movement would indicate 260 Deg F. Why...there are 2 inductive coils in the temp gauge which control the location of the needle by magnetism. The coil in the "cold" circuit = 67 ohms. The coil in the "hot" circuit = 53 ohms. There is a series shunt resistor to ground added to the "cold" circuit providing a total of 150 ohms. The "hot" circuit utilizes the temp sensor in the engine to provide the variable resistance needed to position the needle. There is a total of 288 ohms across the operational range of the sensor (thermistor) which acts as a variable resistor as the water temperature changes. Therefore, when 12 volts is applied to the center tap of the inductive coils, each side must be equal in value to locate the needle on center. So, to equalize the EMF between coils, approximately 100 ohms added to the "hot" circuit coil value of 53 is needed to position the needle in the center. If you look at the specifications of the factory temp sensor, 102 ohms is equal to 260 Deg F. 53 + 102 = 155 which will, in essence, balance the bridge or equal the EMF between coils (150 in the cold circuit) and allow the needle to point to the center of the movement. The opposite effect is true with a completely cold engine. With 390 ohms @ 100 Deg F added to the 53 ohm "hot" circuit, the current limiting factor switches in favor of the cold side, thus, allowing the needle to be pulled to the maximum cold position.

So...with all the extraneous information previously provided, the guys who mentioned 1/4 location as normal operating temperature of 180 Deg F are just about on the money. :hurray: Sorry for the dissertation, but, I didn't know how to shorten the explanation.
 
From a purely theoretical standpoint...YES, if you understand Ohm's Law and the theory behind the operation of a Wheatstone bridge using the balanced/unbalanced bridge concept, plus the operation of the D'Arsonval gauge movement technology of the "old" days. The design of the original factory circuit matched the gauge readout with the change in resistance of the water temp sensor mounted in the engine. Using the factory resistance specifications of each component, the theoretical location of the gauge needle at the exact center of the movement would indicate 260 Deg F. Why...there are 2 inductive coils in the temp gauge which control the location of the needle by magnetism. The coil in the "cold" circuit = 67 ohms. The coil in the "hot" circuit = 53 ohms. There is a series shunt resistor to ground added to the "cold" circuit providing a total of 150 ohms. The "hot" circuit utilizes the temp sensor in the engine to provide the variable resistance needed to position the needle. There is a total of 288 ohms across the operational range of the sensor (thermistor) which acts as a variable resistor as the water temperature changes. Therefore, when 12 volts is applied to the center tap of the inductive coils, each side must be equal in value to locate the needle on center. So, to equalize the EMF between coils, approximately 100 ohms added to the "hot" circuit coil value of 53 is needed to position the needle in the center. If you look at the specifications of the factory temp sensor, 102 ohms is equal to 260 Deg F. 53 + 102 = 155 which will, in essence, balance the bridge or equal the EMF between coils (150 in the cold circuit) and allow the needle to point to the center of the movement. The opposite effect is true with a completely cold engine. With 390 ohms @ 100 Deg F added to the 53 ohm "hot" circuit, the current limiting factor switches in favor of the cold side, thus, allowing the needle to be pulled to the maximum cold position.

So...with all the extraneous information previously provided, the guys who mentioned 1/4 location as normal operating temperature of 180 Deg F are just about on the money. :hurray: Sorry for the dissertation, but, I didn't know how to shorten the explanation.
Yes, what he said LOL. Good job Karl :beers:
 
Yes there is a thread covering the factory and aftermarket service senders and their relationship to the gauge face. Also the amount of resistance you need to add to push the needle to the center position at normal operating temperatures. I also remember a thread comparing the original wound wire resistor tot he new style ceramic ones.
 
HuH?:confused: But I'm remembering why they didn't let me take physics in high school.
 
Yes there is a thread covering the factory and aftermarket service senders and their relationship to the gauge face. Also the amount of resistance you need to add to push the needle to the center position at normal operating temperatures. I also remember a thread comparing the original wound wire resistor tot he new style ceramic ones.
Brian...if you wish to offset the scale by 25% or 1/4 of the gage movement, one would have to add resistance in series with the "cold" circuit. This would be a total of 67 (cold gage coil), 83 series factory shunt resistor already in place and an additional 144 ohms. Why...the total operational range of the engine sensor is ~288 ohms from 100 to 260 Deg F. To reach mid range at 260 Deg F with 50 percent scale movement of the needle, the entire current limiting resistance has been removed from the "hot" circuit, thus allowing the needle to deflect to it's maximum to the right which is "half way". Since a 288 change is required for 50% scale of the pointer to be achieved, it would seem reasonable that 1/2 of that amount (144) would be needed to affect a 25% or 1/4 change in scale. So, if you place 144 ohms in series with the "cold" circuit to ground, EMF is shifted to the "hot" circuit allowing the needle to move to the right by another 1/4 scale, placing it in the middle of the scale for normal operating temperature. Does that make sense? ;)

I would hesitate, however, as that amount could drastically change the starting location of the needle when cold. I'd want to experiment before instituting said practice :D
 
Yeah it makes sense but I have never understood why folks wanted to push the scale of the factory gauges to line up at noon, maybe its OCD? I like the offset but then that's just me. :)

Someone soon will release a 68-69 Camaro/Nova factory looking total programmable digital set for these console and then they can do what they want to them without tinkering. It's just a matter of time.

Thanks Karl for the details. Someone will use it to move their gauge I'm sure.
 
When I joined this site I was told there would be no math. I think there was math in there somewhere.
Al...I tried to keep it simple so that I wouldn't have to splane the cosine of the angle to the dangle or was it the square root of the heat to the meat! :D
 
Hi Karl
Don't you need to also throw the Parallax viewpoint into this Discussion ?
Seat position, height of Eyes ?

No, please don't, only having fun remembering things we thought we would never have to deal with in "real life".

In Math class, we could only use a Slide Rule, no Calculators - Forgot most of it.

Timmy
 
Jim if you really want to know what the temperature of your engine as it warms up get a digital water temperature gauge. Intellitronix has awesome gauges. http://intellitronix.com/water-gauges.html#blue and Glowshift Digital Gauges http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/blue-digital-water-temperature-gauge.aspx. Get rid of the generic faced analog gauges. Also use a pillar pod to mount your new gauge. http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/Universal-Single-Pillar-Pod.aspx They also have an universal dual gauge console pod. http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/Universal-Dual-Gauge-Console-Dash-Pod.aspx
 
Can someone tell me what the marks stand for? There's no numbers, just marks and a red (over heated?) square. I would like to know my engine's temperature while running.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
Not really any math, I've known this for years and actually tested it on my own factory temp gauge.

The first 1/4 mark = 180 degs
The 1/2 mark (straight up) = 210 degs

In my test I determined this by running a tested Autometer gauge and sender on 2 separate occasions. Test one was when my factory gauge was running straight up (1/2) so I disconnected the factory and installed the Autometer.

Next I wanted my engine to run cooler than that so I had my rad re-cored, installed a new fan and clutch and thermostat. The results were the Autometer gauge stayed right around 180. Happy with that I put the stock factory sender and gauge back into service and it runs at the 1/4 mark...

I can't say for sure the pattern continues past the 1/2 mark, my guess is by the time the needle is 3/4 or touching the, I believe it is supposed to be yellow it's 240 or higher...

This is all dependent on having the correct sender for your gauge!!!
 
Hi Karl
Don't you need to also throw the Parallax viewpoint into this Discussion ?
Seat position, height of Eyes ?

No, please don't, only having fun remembering things we thought we would never have to deal with in "real life".

In Math class, we could only use a Slide Rule, no Calculators - Forgot most of it.

Timmy
Holy Hanna Tim...slide rule, I haven't seen that since '69. I believe it's in the basement with rest of my textbooks. I had enough trouble with everyone's law like Ohm & Kirchkoff. Heck, I was a shy country boy my first semester in college and barely knew Thomas Edison...are you serious, I need more laws. Electrical Eng has more laws than the state of PA...what did I get myself into? :clonk:Oh well, it helped finance my fetish for classic cars and allowed me to put away foolish things like slide rules.l:)
 
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