Team Camaro Tech banner

best 327 cam for under 5000rpm

12K views 61 replies 13 participants last post by  RickB1B  
#1 ·
Hey I've been doing some Desktop Dyno runs for a 327 with Vortec heads, 650cfm carb, and large headers. Looks like the Comp XE256H camshaft is creating the most HP and Torque below 5000rpms.
339hp @ 5000 and 388ftlb @ 3500.
The curve looks really nice too.
Image


------------------
1968 Coupe, 327/210hp project in process.
PS/PB, Factory AC
 
#2 ·
Oh yeah I used 10:1 compression and the reason I'm looking under 5000 rpms is because I don't want to go crazy and I think I'd enjoy the low range power.
 
#4 ·
Is that with the cam straight up at 0* ? I've played with DD2000 and have found alot of power by retarding the cam -8* to -12*. Is this normal and why ?

------------------
69 Camaro Z28 "clone" - 327 AT
"461" camel back heads,
edelbrock, hooker, ultradyne,
TRW etc.
700R4 TPI transmission
 
owns 1969 Chevrolet Camaro
#5 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJS69:
Is that with the cam straight up at 0* ? I've played with DD2000 and have found alot of power by retarding the cam -8* to -12*. Is this normal and why ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Retarding cam timing will create more peak HP and the peak will get higher in the RPM range. You're not finding "more power" though, because your engine spends the least amount of time at "peak power". In fact, advancing the cam timing a little (like 4* - most cam companies do this for you by grinding the advance in) will move the power lower in the RPM band where you will use it. I think you'll find most cars will be quicker with a cam slightly advanced. I also personally believe that if you have to monkey around with cam timing to make a particular cam work for you, you have the wrong cam for your application!

the change in power and RPM when advancing/retarding the cam is caused by the corresponding change in the intake valve opening/closing points. The opening and closing points affect how much the valve is open when piston speeds (depends on both RPM and rod/stroke ratio) pull max air through the head (so intake runner design comes into play too). There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic idea.

ps. Personally, I think the 327 is built to rev and will live a long happy life seeing 6000 RPM or more. If you want max low end power and drivability out of your 327 that XE 256 is probably right for you - but if you want to take advantage of your engines mid and upper RPM capabilities, you might want just a little more cam.

Just my opinion.

------------------
68 Camaro, 383 small block with TH350 trans. 11.98's at 111mph and never trailered.
 
#6 ·
I agree with Eric68! High RPM operation is what 327's are all about. There are NO reliability problems with these engines up to 8000 RPM if built with even a modest amount of care.

I've driven an 8500 RPM 327 over 20K miles in a year without even breaking a pushrod!

If your dead set on keeping the revs low, build a 350 and take the free 30 HP that comes with the extra inches!
Image




------------------
Paul D.

-----------------------
68RS, 331, 10.5:1, 4spd, 3.90 9", lowered, 245-45-16's all 'round
 
#7 ·
Hey Jim68!

That is the same cam I had picked out for my 327. I was wondering if you made any 327 desktop dyno runs with the following parameters:

.030 overbore (331)
Stock Cylinder heads (68cc?)
9.25:1 Compression ratio
Comp. XE256 cam
E-brock Performer.
E-brock 600cfm carb.
Hooker 1 5/8 competition headers.

If so, I would LOVE to hear if the above combo will make it to 300HP(that's my goal). If this combo doesn't make 300HP, I'm wondering what else I have to upgrade to make it to the "Magic" 300hp number.

I would be very grateful to you or anyone else who would be willing to run my combo thru thier desktop dyno program.

Thank You,
Mark P.

------------------
69 Camaro Coup
Cortez Silver/drk blue in
327/210hp
Powerglide trans.
Ugly & skinny tires!
 
#8 ·
Granny69,

I just e-mailed you a screen shot of your duno run. I'll put it up on the forum later tonight.
JIM68(never decided on where to go with my camaro, still in pieces...)

------------------
1968 Coupe, 327/210hp project in process.
PS/PB, Factory AC
 
#9 ·
I ran some numbers through my desktop dyno for your 331.

I don't know the exact flow numbers for your heads, so I had to wing that... Also, the intake and exhaust functions are kind of generic, so I picked that you had a free flowing exhaust with small tube headers.

With the XE256 the computer says that you'll make 290 horses @ 4500rpm and about 390 ft. lbs. torque at 3000rpm.

with the XE262, one step up, it says you should have just about 300 horses @ 5000rpm and 385 ft. lbs. at the same 3000rpm.

For a comparison on the heads... switching to the Edelbrock RPM heads...

with the XE256 nets 350 horses @ 5500rpm and 395 ft. lbs. @ 3500rpm.

with the XE262 makes 365 horses @ 5500rpm and about the same amount of torque as the previous cam made, just up about 250rpm in the powerband.

With the AFR 180cc head cylinder flow put in... the XE256 reads 368 horses @5500rpm and 400 ft. lbs. at 3500 rpm. The XE262 comes out to about 380 horses around 5750rpm and 400 ft. lbs. around 3750rpm with those same AFR heads.

This is just the computer dyno however. The comparisons show just how much off my guess on the stock head flow may be...
 
#10 ·
If all you want is a strong low rpm 327 engine then by all means consider the Performer cam at 204/214, 112/107, .420"/.442" lift. It is a step above the stock -929, 300hp/327 cam and it will build power all through the curves!

A 300hp/327 was a heck of an engine in its day!! It was also one of them 150,000 mile engines that ran real good for no more then it was and it will last a long time, plus be pretty fuel eff. to boot. IMHO. pdq67
 
#11 ·
Thanks JIM68!

It looks like my numbers peaked at about 280-290HP & 360fp of torque. My combo will ad about 70-80hp to the base of a 327/210hp engine. I'm sure it will wake up the engine a little, but it looks like I'm going to need a better set of cylinder heads to get to 300HP.

Thanks again to Jim68 and Boodlefoof for the desktop dyno runs!

Regards,
Mark P.

------------------
69 Camaro Coup
Cortez Silver/drk blue in
327/210hp
Powerglide trans.
Ugly & skinny tires!

[This message has been edited by Granny's 69 (edited 01-24-2002).]
 
#12 ·
Here's the dyno run with Garnny's set up with the 256(plain) and the performer cam(blue markers). Looks like the turning point is 3700 rpm....
Image


------------------
1968 Coupe, 327/210hp project in process.
PS/PB, Factory AC

[This message has been edited by JIM68 (edited 01-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by JIM68 (edited 01-24-2002).]
 
#13 ·
I just wanted to put in my two cents on building a 327 for less than 5000rpm. IMO, the best thing about a 327 is that it can rev high. I wouldn't even build it if it wasn't going to see at least 6500rpm. One thing BB owners miss out on is the feeling of going through the gears at 7k plus rpm and winning open-header contests. (SB owners miss out on treestump pulling TQ) Its one or the other, if you have a SB with not much tq and not much hp you have nothing. 327's don't make much torque anyway so put some 4.56 gears in it, and go to the moon with the rpm's. To me to build a 327 for low rpm would be pointless--your better building off building a 350/383. With that engine combo your good for about a high 13 at about 102mph. A stock Ls1 does better than that.
 
#14 ·
Eric 68 - I agree with what you are saying about advancing/retarding a cam but here is some food for thought. Suppose the XE-256 was designed for a 350 and not a 327. The stock 350HP 327 cam was retarded 4* at grinding. If the XE-256 was not, wouldn't retarding it in a 327 be beneficial? Desktop Dyno shows improvement, anyone with real life experience on this?

------------------
69 Camaro Z28 "clone" - 327 AT
"461" camel back heads,
edelbrock, hooker, ultradyne,
TRW etc.
700R4 TPI transmission
 
owns 1969 Chevrolet Camaro
#15 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJS69:
Eric 68 - I agree with what you are saying about advancing/retarding a cam but here is some food for thought. Suppose the XE-256 was designed for a 350 and not a 327. The stock 350HP 327 cam was retarded 4* at grinding. If the XE-256 was not, wouldn't retarding it in a 327 be beneficial? Desktop Dyno shows improvement, anyone with real life experience on this?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, there's a lot of things that could be changed with a grind to make it better for one size engine. If you have to change around the cam timing to make a cam work with a particular combo, there is probably another cam that will make even more power without messing with timing. Look at the XE 262 or XE 268 with your 327 example. Retarding a cam to make more peak horsepower has serious consequences - look closely at what happens to your torque down low. As you start retarding a cam significantly you'll also see torque fall, dip and look "not so smooth" below say 3000 RPM.

If you keep making more power by retarding a cam you should probably look at a couple cams with more duration. More duration will open the intake valve sooner and keep it open longer so you can fill the cylinders better. When you retard a cam you are not keeping the intake valve open any longer, you are just delaying its opening and closing points. It's OK to change cam timing around a little (4* or less IMO) but you had better know why you are doing it and the consequences it will have on TQ.

Another example, Lobe Separation Angle is the angle between the centerline of the intake and exhaust lobes. You were talking before about advancing and retarding the entire cam before, but if you get a cam with a wider LSA (say 112 degrees instead of 110 degrees) you are effectively changing just the exhaust valve timing if the cam is installed on the same intake center line (not advanced or retarded). A narrower LSA will open the exhaust valve sooner and create more overlap with the same duration. This generally creates a narrower power band slightly higher in the RPM band. I mention this because longer stroke engines (you mentioned going from a 327 to a 350) generally like a tighter LSA where shorter stroke engines work well with a wider LSA. A wider Lobe Separation Angle generally creates less peak power but creates a wider RPM band that fits well with smaller cube engines.

As you can see there is a lot to picking the right cam.

[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 01-25-2002).]
 
#16 ·
By the way - the XE256 IS [edit - ADVANCED] 4* by Comp Cams. If you install it "dot to dot" it will be 4* advanced.



[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 01-25-2002).]
 
#17 ·
If you dont mind could you do a comparison
with my set up it will show the difference of the low rpm vs. high rpm of the 327.I built mine to take advantage of the short stroke: .060 over 9.5 comp.,Comp Cams 294s 461 heads ported (but use stock flow #'s w/1.94 for comparison,I also use 1.6 on intake 1.5 ex roller rockers)perf.rpm intake and edelbrock mech 750 more top end could be obtained w/victor jr intake but I thought the perf.rpm would help out on bottom a bit. I have ran this on the street w/ 4speed and power brakes with no problem it pulls good from 2500 up to 6500 and im sure makes close to 400 hp if not more (it does for some reason like more timing too about 42 total on 92 octane) Mike
 
#18 ·
JIM68,

I saw the dyno run you did for me posted in this thread. You did a comparison between the Comp. XE256H and the E-brock performer cam (not the RPM cam) right? Also, did you use stock cylinder heads for the comparison.

It looks like the Performer cam gives up some HP & Torque up to 3700RPM but outruns the XE256H on the top end. Also, the Performer cam made it to 300HP.

Please let me know.

Thanks,
Mark P.



------------------
69 Camaro Coup
Cortez Silver/drk blue in
327/210hp
Powerglide trans.
Ugly & skinny tires!
 
#20 ·
Hey 3DUDE, Granny's 69, and pdq67

I'll run everything later tonight and post them, but i've got no time now... check back around 10 or so. For Granny's 69 I've been using the stock 210hp 462heads with 1.72intake and 1.5exaust. All you guys are awesome. I love all the input we are getting. Now it almost seems pointless to keep the motor stock with all the potential it has. I was keeping it stock with the exception of the 4 brrl intake with carb, but since my engine looks like this: I may as well beef her up while it's super easy.
Image


------------------
1968 Coupe, 327/210hp project in process.
PS/PB, Factory AC
 
#21 ·
Hey Guys!

I'm eagerly awaiting your dyno run posts. It looks like the XE256 and E-brock Performer are opposite of each other with stock cylinder heads. The E-brock performer cam suprised me on it's top end power (made it to 300hp),while the XE256 pulls better below 3700RPM.

According to Boodlefoof's dyno runs, the XE256 is an excellent cam with upgraded cylinder heads.

I'll check back in with you as soon as I can,
(I'm hunting for a new Internet provider to use at home!).

Take care,
Mark P.


------------------
69 Camaro Coup
Cortez Silver/drk blue in
327/210hp
Powerglide trans.
Ugly & skinny tires!
 
#22 ·
Image

3DUDE peaks at 368hp@5500
The two others are the same as the above graph between Granny's set up with the 256 or the Performer cam.
Check earlier posts for specs

[This message has been edited by JIM68 (edited 01-25-2002).]
 
#23 ·
Here's another interesting one: Granny's set-up almost matches the 275hp 327 with using the 256cam and the 210hp heads. The bottom one is the stock 210hp 327.
Image


[This message has been edited by JIM68 (edited 01-25-2002).]
 
#24 ·
I just ran your engine using the following cam and came up with 367hp@5500rpm and 389ft/lbs@4000rpm

The cam is Federal Mogul Speed Pro - CS1014R

HYD
Cam Specs @ .050
Intake Lift@Valve - .420
Exhuast Lift@Valve - .443
Lobe Center is 112.0
Intake Duration is 204
Exhuast Duration is 214

This cam was installed straight up no advance.

Good Luck

------------------
Bryan Shook
Favorite Quote - Some people have shrinks. Some people have their garage.
My Father's 1968 RS 327!
My First Generation Camaro site
 
#26 ·
Hey 3Dude, what vacuum do you have at idle? I have almost the same set up as you, 327, 461 heads, 4 speed, but I have to use a performer for hood clearance, and I'm running a 600cfm Holley. Also my compression's a bit higher at 10.5:1. I'm looking for a new cam, but thought a 294s would be too big for a little engine. How does it run? Does it lope? Thanks.