A couple of thoughts:

* If you're not using the correct "knurled" starter bolts, the starter will walk on you.

* Have you inspected the entire ring gear for damage?

* Are you sure the grinding isn't coming from inside the bellhousing,..perhaps a broken bolt or something?

Let us know.

 

-The starter bolts are the knurled type.

-I have seen no damage to the ring gear (figured there might be), or on the gear on the starter. Did the same with the auto flywheel before, and there was no damage.

-Again, it did the same with the 700R. Hardware is all new, no vibrations in the driveline.

It was making the ugly sounds before (though it didn't live very long), but has gotten worse after the swap. As well as it has worked well after the swap (intermittently).

Appreciate the suggestions as I'm all-ears at this point :thumbsup:

 

are you using the same flywheel/starter combo?

 

All new parts/hardware were used in the changeover from Auto-6spd, and have tried several starters all of which do the same thing.

 

The small starter bolts are different than the large starter, there are different diameters of bolts in the knurl area, - and lengths can be different causing the bolt to tighten but the starter remains loose enough to move. Make sure your bolts are correct for your current starter. I've done a few swaps from the small starter to the older style and got caught with mis-matched bolts.
David

 

Interesting, David. Could be a possibility?

The starter bolts are something that have been swapped several times, from repo parts vendor knurled, to grade 8s, to Help section knurled (and I'm sure there's another set that we've tried). Has always been a 168, so it's not a long-short bolt setup. The OE type knurled bolts didnt make a difference with the OE starter and have been used with the small starter also, but I can't say that we've used "small starter bolts" (any source or p/n?) with the small starter. It does tighten to the block, not moving around.

It's just aggravating, since it should be simple. Taking out the small starter from the scenario, an OE starter with OE bolts on a straight SB shouldn't give any issue.

 

Ok, Grinding coming from new 355 in friends P/U turned out to be the small bolts in the large starter. Starter was tight but that optima batt sure makes it wiggle under load.
Is it shimmed properly? Not insluting your in-tel-uh-gents,...of course.

 

It currently has an Optima battery, but it did the same with a "regular" battery (yeah, have tried that too). There may be a starter "wiggle" though I don't think so, but something else to check.

Have tried all configurations of starters, shims, and bolts that I can think of.

Everything mechanically has been changed, including eng/trans setup.

Considering shimming the H out of it and then working back. Already has 3 or 4 in it, though.

 

hmm...Ill do some more playin and readin Dave...

 

Try disconnecting the battery and prying the bendix into engagement with the flywheel, it may not be engaging the flywheel teeth enough. They never go all the way though. There is a small drain hole on the bottom of the starter, you can drill it out a bit to allow a thin screwdriver to be used to pry on the bendix.

I have an old small starter, I'll compare it to a large body model and see which is larger. I may have some extra bolts to compare too. If the starter can't move, it probably isn't the bolts but it would be great if that was it!
David

 

here are some starter parts listings. http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Starters_And_Parts/index.cfm
Adding a starter brace might help, see them listed just below the bolts.

 

dave,
we ran into simialar problems on other chevy trucks /cars..
we ended up switching to a 153 tooth flywheel..and mini starter ..new bolts as well..have not had any other problems..hope this helps..
kevin

 

Have you checked the flywheel to starter gear clearance gap? I am talking about the distance the end of the gear is from the flywheel not gear mesh. When I installed my GM Mini starter on my GM flywheel I had to put a shim in the snout of the starter to get it within spec. It was way to close. If the gear doesn't have enough room to mesh it will grind. I believe it needs atleast .035 clearance. I can probably find the specs if you need them. Let me know.

 

Think I made some ground on this sucker today. It's pretty good right now, but have been here before only to have it go south again before too long.

If anyone knows: pn 09000852 (new) 10465167 (reman) listed here:

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Star...arts/index.cfm

Would it be the same physical dimensions as NAPA 4N-5110, which I believe is for 1998 Chevy truck application? The picture looks the same as the NAPA in it now, but can't go by that for sure. Listed for 502/502, but could also be used on SBC, right?

I know it's a tough question, but the starter is good and just looking to find out if the bolts and brace for the GM would be a direct fit.

 

You can tell if you have the correct length bolts if only about half the knurl is exposed on a trial fit with the starter with the starter out of the car. Make sense?

 

Dave,

I've been using Tilton mini-starters for years with great luck. But when I used the larger GM starters, the rear brace and correct GM bolts solved my issues, rarely had to shim them.

Jody

 

I think I have it narrowed down, and (as of now) it seems to be a fairly simple fix as assumed. I'm really hoping so. Thanks to all of you guys :thumbsup:

But when I used the larger GM starters, the rear brace and correct GM bolts solved my issues, rarely had to shim them.

I'm not aware of a rear brace? Do you mean one that would be towards the front of the car that bolts to the block?

You can tell if you have the correct length bolts if only about half the knurl is exposed on a trial fit with the starter with the starter out of the car. Make sense?

Verified today that the bolts are correct. The knurl comes through about 1/8" (the previous config had lock washers on it which didn't allow the knurl to come all the way through), but the knurls are worn down from having gone through the starter before. They are GM bolts, and the slack there is minimal.

Do you have a bell housing alinement issue? I know the starter is not connect to it but the starter snout could possibly being pushed to one side?

BH is aligned. With one on of the previous starters we had used, had to make clearance between the starter snout and the BH. No clearance issue now.


As many configurations have we've put it through, there's a good chance that we had the bolts wrong each time. If you had any idea of my luck, you would understand it is very possible.

It was turning over pretty well today after I removed the one shim in it and the lock washers from the bolts. I think (hope) that with a front brace, if 03965509 will work with it, and maybe a fresh set of bolts (might not be necessary, but why not?) we just might have it licked....

If I can clear out the vehicles that are blocking it, I'm gonna go beat the snot out of it before Chris gets back in town. It has a full tank

This car is such a blast to drive

 

Do you have a bell housing alinement issue? I know the starter is not connect to it but the starter snout could possibly being pushed to one side?

 

Have you tried stealing someone else's starter off a known good vehicle? Sounds crazy but sometimes... It would at least indicate if its the actual starter or not.

Also, I swore off aftermarket reman starters years ago after having one bite me in the but with bendix noises like you describe. GM bendix's looked totally different than the one on the parts house starter. Never had an issue with a factory starter.

Car does look fun BTW... :beers:


Chris

 

I hear ya, Chris.

We've tried several starters, both OE and mini. The small one we have now is a new NAPA that works just fine, as has the OE.

They work okay at times, but soon fade away. That's why I'm thinking we've hit on something here with the correct bolts and a brace on it. It's like it works fine, but without the correct fit, it eventually becomes misaligned. Hoping so, at least :thumbsup:

 

The knurled part of the bolt should fit tight in the starter and be long enough to protrude (and fit tight) into the countersunk holes in the block. The knurled part that fits between the starter and the block is critical to proper starter alignment. I have seen the knurled part ruined by tightening the first bolt before the knurl on the second bolt has engaged the countersunk bolt hole in the block. When the second bolt is driven, the alignment knurl on the bolt is sheared down by the edge of the bolt hole in the block. If there is any damage to the knurled part, the bolt should not be used.

The correct way to install the starter is to just lightly snug the first bolt (leaving the starter free to move around) before driving the second bolt.

 

The LOCK washers ARE your problem, I promise. Had I known that, you would have been fixed awhile back. LOL. I did the EXACT same thing with my 383 stroker. I installed a ministarter and it said use lock washers. SAME PROBLEM. Could not get it to quit grinding. Dad removed the lock washers and installed a factory starter and never had a problem after that.

 

Yeah, I agree. This thing has been so many combos of starters, shims, bolts, that was one of the resorts. Once I pulled the starter out earlier today, I realized that they were wrong.

I can't say for sure that's the solution, but *as of now*, it seems to be. It has had issues without the locks before.

*cross fingers*

 

Thanks, Steve. I understand what you're saying.

That's the track we're on. Each of the GM knurled bolts are worn down evenly from where theyve been through the starter before, and have little slack now, but considering a new set of GM bolts as inexpensive as they are, and even a front brace if applicable on this particlular starter. Something we'll be looking into for sure.

Neither the starter(s) or flywheel teeth look bad, but it sure is acting like the starter could be moving around.

This thing is just throwing me off as I've never had any starter issues whatsoever. Thanks to my fellow TC'ers, think it's narrowed down :thumbsup:

 

Yep, the brace is important.

I also recall that GM made some starters with a cast iron nose that have a good rep for durability.

 

Do you have the brace on the forward end of the armature case to the block? Starters were NOT designed to be attached only by the two bolts through the nose casting.

:beers:

 

As expected, was good for a couple of days, then was a 50/50 shot between turning over and the god-awful screeching/grinding, now it's all the time.

It's gotta be moving around. Ordered the brace from GM, hopefully it'll work. If we can't make that work, we'll go back to the OE starter with OE brace.

If none of the above works, the car becomes crusher bait

 

The car has bad Karma, see:

 

Don't forget this one:

Wondering if maybe the gumball #s the car has worn weren't such a great idea afterall

 

Don't forget this one:

Wondering if maybe the gumball #s the car has worn weren't such a great idea afterall

JB Weld will fix that good as new.

:beers:

Geez, that's one of the worst ones I've ever seen!!!!

alan

 

If you want to check the bendix to flywheel mesh, just remove the positive battery cable from the starter and crawl underneath. Have someone, or a remote starter button in hand, engage the starter. The power to the solenoid will engage the bendix but not turn the starter over. This will allow you to visually check the engagement.
On that note, have you ever been watching the starter while having it turn over to see if it is moving ?? A remote starter button is a valuable troubleshooting tool for problems like this......:yes:

 

On that note, have you ever been watching the starter while having it turn over to see if it is moving ??

Have never watched the starter while cranking, but hopefully will before the brace. I'm sure it has to be moving around. That's what the symptoms are saying rather than a mesh problem.

I got to stretch it's legs Saturday (didn't completely thrash it) while it was still starting, and it's still very much fun :yes: By the time Chris got back in town, it was all-grind, all the time. His loss

A slipping bendix will make a screeching noise, there is a roller clutch inside it. Makes a terrible sound.

The starter(s) work just fine for a while, but go to heck quickly. That's why I'm thinking it's moving out of alignment after a dozen starts or so.