So does the suspension shift, like something is loose, or does it just sit cock-eyed? Have you had the alignment checked? I'd have that checked by a newer machine (Hunter DSP), and have them check the set back, track width, and lateral offset. That'll tell how square the thing is. Most of the GM rear wheel drive cars have a camber sag problem. Between that, the age of the car, and any body damage that may happened during its lifetime plus big tires, they got to start rubbing somewhere.


ron

 

Thanks for the reply Ron,

The tires fit centered in the wells from a side view... Everything seems to be bolted solid (no movement). The driver side tire is just set deeper into the well than the passanger side is (apx 1").

I will start looking for a good front end shop here in San Jose. Any Bay area folks got a recomendation?

------------------
...Dennis
Topless'69
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
rsss.fun@gte.net

 

DjD,

Have you checked the major body-to-subframe alignment dimensions as listed in the Body by Fisher chassis manual? It's a cheap checkup.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

 

Wheel Works works well in wheel wells, at least they did when I worked there 17 years ago

ron

 

DJD,
I have fought the same problem with my 69 for years! I figured it had either been wrecked or caused by its drag racing history (which maybe put too much torque on the body). I've have even cut up two rear passenger side tires so severely on the fender they had to be replaced. Would appreciate any info if you have been able to correct this problem with the sagging right side.

 

I've got a good friend who has the same clearance problem on the right front of his 69 Z/28.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Homepage
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

 

Thanks for the input guys..

Carl - I will do more measuring. I did measure from the subframe to the inner fender bolts on both sides and at the back of the wheel well the measurement is the same. At the front of the wheel well the passanger side is 1/2" shorter than the driver side. This just might be the problem, passanger side subframe bent or mis-aligned...

Ron - quite a tongue twister... Would WWorks be able to further diag and fix or is this a body shop fix.

englemac - no problems in the rear just the front. If both tires were shifted over toward the drivers side 1/2" I don't think there would be any rubbing...

David - What is your friends take on this? Do you think the subframe could just be mis-aligned?

------------------
...Dennis
Topless'69
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
rsss.fun@gte.net

 

DjD,

Joseph just aligned his car several weeks ago. The poor mans method is a tape measure and plumb bobs and measuring the diagonals from the firewall master gauge hole on the center frame mount to the oposite side rear frame master gauge hole just forward of the spring. It really helps to have two sets of hands and at least 3 bobs. If you only have two bobs it's a pain swapping them. Tie the string to a piece of wire that you can slip into the hole lengthwise, turn sideways, and lay over the top of the hole. Eyeball center the string and you're good to go.

You would still need to measure the length on each side as well.

Can you adjust the frame alinment with the sheet metal in place? Seems you could if you were carefull. Perhaps ragtopman or Austin have some suggestions on this.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

 

The subframe can move around quite a bit, but before trying anything like that I would check the actual wheel-base from side to side, if its off then bring it to a good alignment shop. If you shift the subframe aroud you will need an alignment.
I would bring it to a GOOD alignment shop and express your concerns, a good tech should be able to determine what is wrong if there is somthing that is out of place (frame damage, ect.). Our alignment tech does move sub frames frequently when doing alignments. Hope this helps alittle.
Austin

 

It could be a subframe misalignment but seems to be common among 69's.
Take a good look up next to the center pair of subframe bolts and see if the alignment holes next to them are lined up.

You might even be able to use a correct size punch in the holes to check if they are O.K.

This is probably as good as the factory did it.
Art Rasmussen posted here some time ago that he has found these holes to be off on many Camaros.

From there I'd do the plumb bob thing. I like to level the car on jack stands and drop the plumb bob to the floor and mark on masking tape set right on the floor.
I then can measure an X between four plumb bob marks for the sub frame and at least two from the rear of the unit body and see if they are the same.

Remember the steering colum is connected when shifting around the subframe. You don't want to damage it.
It might also be possible to loosen the inner fender panel bolts and move it out a little?
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Homepage
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 09-03-2000).]

 

Hey guys, I knew nothing of this post here, but you can check out my post at http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum3/HTML/000597.html because I'm having the SAME EXACT PROBLEM with my '68... DjD, did you ever find a fix for this??? PLEASE HELP!!! lol

 

My '67 SS/RR has never been "tweeked" but still is off about 1/2" towards the passenger side in the rear. I found this out when I put my L-60's on it and "measured" everything with my "fingers".
It seems I've heard that (+/-), 1/2 an inch is "supposed" to be within spec. body wise.
I never checked the front because my E-60's never bothered me but I did notice that the one on the drivers side seemed to "turn-up" the wheel well opening "chrome" at hard bounce.
By the way, where are the "alignment holes you are talking about for the subframe. I might as well "poke" them to see since my car's up in the air anyway. pdq67

 

Well guys...add me to the list I guess. I have the same problem. Passenger is a good half inch closer to the well.

 

DjD

Have you checked the frame to body alignment holes with a .610 dia alignment pin? I assembled both of my 69's using these pins and I do not have this problem. I see comments that these may be off location but it seems a simple check and the factory correct starting point. If you need pins let me know and I can send you a set for the cost of shipping.

TTFN
Mat

 

Mat,

So much going on I haven't had a moment to follow up this. Send me an email and I will take you up on your gracious offer.(link in signature) This site never stops amazing me!!!

------------------
...Dennis
Topless'69
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
rsss.fun@gte.net

 

I got the alignment pins (Big thanks Mat!) and the driver side is right on! Passanger side is off alignment by 50% or more!

Anyone wnat to make a suggestion as to the best way to approach this? I have jack stands a floor jack and some air tools. I have done some brake work (rotors, pads) and replaced wheel bearings before. Shocks are as far as I have gone with suspension work!

------------------
...Dennis
Topless'69
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
rsss.fun@gte.net

 

Try calling Custom Alignment in Mountain View
Bob

 

The closest I've come to trying this on an assembled car is helping car is a friend who pulled drive train out and dropped the frame without removing the front end sheetmetal.

We supported the car by jacking it up and placing 4x4's under the rocker panels. support the 4x4's with the jack stands.

I think you might need to loosen the steering column mounting where it attaches to the firewall and dash.

Support the frame with a floor jack. This is the difficult part, especially when it has the drivetrain installed. Maybe try to get 3 jacks under the frame. 2 @ outer front frame rails and 1 under the trans mount.(3 points define a plane so they should be able to keep the frame level.)

loosen the 6 frame mounting bolts and front bumper mounting bolts. Lower the jacks ever so slightly and jocky frame into position. You may need to remove one of the mounting bolts to use a pry bar thru the hole.
When this is done you will need an alignment. The car will too!


TTFN
Mat

 

Just thinking off the top of my head...

Anything that is attached to the subframe will move when you make the adjustment.

This means the front bumper will have to be loosened or removed. The center brackets will move with the subframe.

The rear wheelhouse brackets will need to me loosened. The same with any sheetmetal support or bracket, especially at the front. A little extra time spent making sure nothing hinders the subframe will go a long way for peace of mind when you start prying.

If you were considering replacing the subframe bushings there won't be a better time.

Ditto on Mat's call on the steering column.

You may still wish to check using the Fisher Body measurements. Joseph and I did his car a month or so ago. The pins did not fit but the measurements were spot-on.

Carl

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Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

 

Thinking back on this, I had a passenger side coil spring relax enough that my dash didn't set level with the right hand crown in the highway as it did new. Everytime I drove my car, it made me mad. I made an appointment at my dealer and they called in a factory rep.
He told me that spring spec's were something like +/- 1/2" for ride height.
A vocal conversation went on and it cost me something like $22.00 to replace both springs with BB A/C ones and GM eating the labor. pdq67

 

Another thought:
make sure that re-positioning the frame to align the holes is in the right direction to solve the clearance problem..you know, measure twice, cut once.
TTFN

 

Thanks all!

Good point Mat... After you said that I just went and checked again... The frame needs to move .400" in the right direction. After reading the more recent responses over several times and spending a great deal of time looking this whole thing over I don't see how I can move 1 side without effecting the other. Both sides are connected below the upper A arms (section where motor mounts) and another section in front of that.

With the front of the rails a fixed width apart I'm not sure this will solve the problem... I will be taking some measurement as soon as I get some time. (my daughters PC crashed and working out of town next week)

Thanks again for all the input! You guys are the greatest!!

------------------
...Dennis
Topless'69
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
rsss.fun@gte.net

 

It seems the subframe should go .4in. toward the drivers side. Yes, the frame is all one piece and you cannot move one side without moving the other. Is the alignment hole off front to back? If so maybe the frame needs to rotate around the hole that is aligned. If the frame hole on the side that is off is .4" toward the passengers side then maybe aligning with the other hole is where it needs to be.

TTFN
Mat