I'm guessing you have spark.

Was it getting to much gas? How wet were the plugs. Could it have flooded out.

Are your sure that the distributer is not 180 out.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not 180 out. I was careful to make sure both #1 valves were closed when lining up the timing mark.

Too much gas is a possibility. I'll check...I definitely have a strong gas odor after letting it crank for several seconds.

 

When that thing fires up, the grin is gonna hurt!

 

If you poured gas down the carb and nothing you have no spark. Check for spark at the plug. Even if the timing was off with spark chances are you would backfire and pop with gas down the carb.

 

I just checked things out a little further. Bought one of those little spark checker tools at Pep Boys.

Coil Wire hooked up to spark tool and grounded with the ignition on and cranking, I got a decent spark off the coil.

Then I hooked up the coil wire to the dist and hooked the spart tool to the number one wire and grounded it through the tool and cranked the engine. Got a spark...but seemed weak (visually) and not consistant.

Then I TDC'd the engine, left the #1 grounded through the tool, turned the ignition on and rotated the distributor back and forth by hand so the rotor contact would pass over the number # terminal. Sometimes I'd get a little spark, most times I wouldn't.

The battery is dead now. It's an old Optima red top...had it for 7 years and for the last 18 mos it sat under my tool bench, then I dropped it into the car and tried starting her with it. I'm re-charging it right now...I'm wondering if the weak battery might be the issue.

Yes...my grin will definitely hurt when I finally get this thing running...:thumbsup:

 

Wife says I need professional help....whatever that means....

I do need help tho'.
I'm getting no where.
I bought a new Optima Battery today cuz the old one was done for. It had an expiration date in 2000.

Still can't get her running.
I've verified that there is spark from the coil.
I verified the engine is on its compression stroke when the dist rotor is aimed at #1 and engine is TDC.
My fuel pressure is 6-7 psi

The best I can get is a huff and a puff, but the engine will not start.
I've tried multiple distributor positions. One seemed better than the rest, but still can't get it to start. After one huffin and puffin attempt, a bunch of white smoke poured out of the headers.

How much distributor rotation can make the difference between an engine that starts and one that huffs and puffs with the throttle floored? I've been rotating anywhere between a 0.25" and 0.5" between attempts.

I'm on my own since the wife is too scared to get in or around the car while it's cranking....

 

Just to confirm the simple stuff, you sure the spark plug wires on the cap are in the right positions.

Are you sure your not a tooth off with the distributer,

 

Did you make any adjustments to valves prior too? Was it running before? Still sounds like timing. Plugs wet?

 

does the coil have power when you are cranking it? i have seen this happen before and they played with the timing alot while cranking and got it started. if worse comes to worse you can run a wire straight from your battery + to the + side of the coil to make 100% sure your getting voltage to the distributor.

 

I'll be checking cranking voltage tomorrow too. I know with the ign in the on position and not cranking....I have 12V at the + side of the coil.

I have a buddy hwo ran a wire direct from his battery to his Accel super coil several years ago.....he forgot to disconnect it....a few hours later he went back out into his garage and the coil had melted down.

 

Thanks for responding, guys.

This is a brand new engine...never run before. Plugs are wet after cranking for several seconds.

Plug wires are in the right position, but I'll be double checkng this tomorrow. I already re-checked the distributor position...it's spot on. With the engine TDC, the rotor points straight ahead to the #1 terminal position. I confirmed compression stroke by removing the #1 plug and sticking my finger down there while cranking the engine with a remote switch and ign off. As the rotor passed #1 position, that air came outa there so hard and fast it made me scream like a little girl.

A couple things come to mind after reading through my Detroit Iron service manual. My fuel pressure might actually be too high and causing a flood condition. The garage wreaks of gas fumes after cranking for several seconds, so I'm pouring raw fuel out the pipes.

The fuel gauge says about 6-7psi, but the liturature that came with my fuel pump says the regulator comes pre-set to 14psi. Gauge might be junk....it's a brand name Summit gauge that came with my fuel line kit.

Also...my idle screws...I know I took them out 1.5 turns from the seated position....service manual says to start at 3 turns....I'll try this out tomorrow along with readjusting my throttle cable...my scondaries would barely open with the peddle floored.

If it aint fuel (flood)...then my timing is still way off. Previous question....how much distributor rotation will make the difference between an engine firing and not firing?

Tim

 

I'm no expert by any means, but here's my .02.
You're getting closer. I like the regulator problem idea. If factory preset is 14 and you never changed it...and the electric fuel pump output is spec'd at greater than 6 psi...then something doesn't add up. When you press the throttle, does fuel squirt from the squirters? Is this a vac secondary carb?

If you've got good spark on compression stroke, and the plugs are wired in the correct firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 with odd cylinders on the driver side of the engine, ie. 1,3,5,7 (1 being front of the car, 7 closest to windshield)...
For setting the distributor, crank #1 up on the compression stroke, finger is ok, or use compression gauge. As it is coming up on compression stroke, stop at 10* BTDC. Usually takes a few times around to get it right if you are using a remote starter. When you have that, mark the distributor body somewhere with a felt pen where #1 post is on the cap. Take the cap off and twist the distributor body to get the rotor aligned with where you put the pen mark. That way, the rotor is set to fire at ~10* BTDC.
I don't know the "spark tool" you have, I take a plug out and place it on the header or somewhere where the plug is grounded. A quick bump and you should see good strong spark.
You can expect a lots of smoke...10-20 mins worth once you get it started. Sounds like a lot of fuel has gone through the motor and is probably coating the exhaust. It's gonna smoke a while to get all out.
Sniff the dipstick. With so much fuel, you may have fuel in the oil now.
I wondered about the valves also, have you adjusted them? I remember a post I used of yours where you mentioned the valve setting instructions that came with your motor...

Sounds like you may be just a few cranks away...

Scott

 

Don't forget to disconnect the wire when you're done. Really tho, the wire shouldn't be required.

Double check everything one more time. TDC, Static timing, firing order. Make sure you have voltage to the + side of the coil when cranking. Make sure there is fuel in the carb, if the accelerator pump squirts you're ok. If your worried about too much fuel pressure, cut off the electric pump. There's enough fuel in an ede to idle for a minute at least.

Your problem is timing. Get your wife to sit in the car and turn the key. You jack the throttle twice and start twisting the distributor counter clockwise (vac can toward the carb.) Keep twisting till she starts, she refuses to crank, or your spark plug wires start knotting up. She will start.

 

I just reread that post on the valve timing. If you followed that procedure with this new engine your valves may be too tight. Zero lash is when you can't move the pushrod or rocker up and down. When you can't spin the pushrod with your finger is too tight. A turn past that is way too tight.

 

Hi Jim.
Thanks. I'll be doing a lot of double checking tomorow.
On the valve preload...this is straight from the instruction sheet that came with the ZZ502 from GMPP.
1) [TDC the engine]
2) With engine in number one firing position..., the following valves may be adjusted. Exhaust 1, 3, 4, 8. Intake: 1, 2, 5, 7
3)
Loosen the adjusting nut until lash is felt at pushrod, then tighten the nut until all lash is removed. This can be determined by rotating the pushrod while turning the nut. When lash has been removed, tighten the nut and additional 3/4 of a turn to center the lifter plunger
4) Rotate crankshaft one revolution to "0". This is #6 firing position and the following valves may be adjusted. Exhaust: 2, 5, 6, 7. Intake: 3, 4, 6, 8

So that's how I adjusted them lifters....I'm hoping GMPP knew what they were doing....you can tell I don't
:waving:
With the plugs out, the engine cranks pretty easily by hand using a ratchet on the damper after adjusting the valves this way. After that issue I had several weeks back where after installing the engine the first time I couldn't get the engine to rotate beyond a certain point, I had to ull the engine and trans back out....After I fixed the interference, I made good and sure I could turn that bugger round and round before I put it back in. That issue ended up being my pressure plate for the 12" clutch assy was running into my scattershield. Read all about it in the Transmissions forum.:sad:

Yup, I get a good stream of fuel from the acc pump squirters when throwing the throttle.

I'll try advancing the dist while I crank tomorrow after I check and re-check the rest of the stuff out.

Aces,
I bought the Edelbrock Performer 850 carb from Summitt a couple years back as a "reconditioned" carb...saved me a few $. It worked fine on my old 396, but it did sit on a shelf the last several months and there is probably no more than 50 miles of driving on it since I bought it. I'm assuming it's still in decent shape.

67family,
The ZZ502 recomended initial timing is 12* BTDC. This engine has a pointer mounted over the damper, and the degree marks are on the damper. I marked 12deg BTDC at the 12* spot in the CW direction from the pointer. Initially this is where I installed my distributor and aimed it at #1. Since then with the starting troubles, I re-TDC'd the engine, left it at "0" and reinstalled the dist to point at #1. Curiosly, the damper has a little factory installed glowing yellow dot on it right at the 12* mark in the CCW direction from the pointer. When I first got the engine, I assumed this was the 12* timing mark, but currently see that as 12* ATDC, so I've been ignoring it.

The spark tool I have is this little $10 gizmo. it has a spark plug electrode on one end that goes into the plug or coil wire. You set the gap inside the tool to the spec'd range for the ignition you have and then use an alligator clip on the other end to clip it to a chassis ground. As you crank the engine or turn the distributor with the ignition on, you can watch the spark jump across the gap to be sure the spark is strong enough.

Vegas69,
The plugs look good and clean....only thing is they are wet after cranking for several seconds with no fire.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.
I appreciate the help.
Tim

 

when you say "reconditioned" carb what all did you do to it? check your float levels, make sure there isnt any internal fuel leaks in the carb, if you know someopne with a spare carb try it out and if it runs with the other one then you know what the prob is.

 

Sounds like the plugs are fouled. Screw in a new set and verify your distributor cap and rotor are ok.

 

She runs, Boyz!!!!!

I adjusted the fuel pressure down to 4 psi, verified all the plug wires were on in the right order, verified cranking voltage (it bounces between 9.65V and 10.5V while cranking).
Then I started cranking her over....advancing the dist a little at a time and kept the throttle open...huff, puff....bang, bang.....ROAR!!!!!

She'll idle and stil needs to be timed, but I noticed this curious little spark jumping from my alternator adjuster bar to the housing of the alternator...or the other way around. All I know is something was sparking up there....I dunno what that's all about so I shut it down.

Any ideas?

 

Sweet! I've been thinking about your car all day!!! Congrats. I can see the grin from here.
No idea what an alternator aduster bar is though...Jim will fix ya.

 

Congrats Mr. Meanchicken!!! I told ya she'd run!! :hurray: :thumbsup: :hurray: :thumbsup:

As for your weird sparks, me thinks for some reason your alternator isn't grounded properly. That's kinda wierd cause they usually ground thru the mounting bolts. First thing I'd do is take that strap off and make sure they ain't no paint keeping it from grounding. If there's painton the strap or where it bolts to the motor, chip it off. Maybe put some star washers under the mounting bolts, stuff like that.

Congrats again for gittin 'er going!!!

 

If I could figure out how to upload pics, I'd paste one here....The alternator adjuster bar is the bar from my March pully system. It attaches between the head and the top of the alternator and is used to adjust the serpentine belt tension. The heads are GMPP aluminum, but I'm pretty sure aluminum conducts electricity....I ohmed the battery post to a spot on the head to be sure....seemed good... The alternator is on the driver side and mounted high and out.

All my ground staps are touching bare metal. The two that go from each side of the engine to the firewall are attached at the valve covers....but maybe this is where my problem is....The valve covers are the powder coated standard ZZ502 covers....you can see this in my pics posted in the member area...
I thought these straps would ground sufficiently by virtue of the valve cover bolt being in full contact with them and threaded into the head.
I also have my battery ground cable attached to the passenger head.

All other gounds in the system are touching fresh metal too.

The sparks jump right off the top of the alternator case....they shoot a few inches high as they jump. It almost looks like striking flint against steel.
I have a small video clip that shows it....but again...dunno how to post it here.

 

Glad you got it running, i have been thinking about what the prob was since i read this. hope you get the alternator gremlin out

 

hmmm, a weird one for sure.

Try taking all the wires off the alternator (be sure to tape the big red one safely out of the way) fire it up, did the sparks stop?

What you're describing is starting to sound more mechanical than electrical, like something inside the alternator is chewing itself to bits.

If you pull the belt and give it a spin does it spin free? Make any wierd sounds?

 

Try moving your ground strap to the block. That is where it belongs. I don't think the valve covers are going to work.

 

Internal stator wire loose? One of the bolts that holes the regulators into frame came out??

 

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'll try to dig into the failure analysis this week and will check all this potential stuff out. I don't get much time on the car during the week due to job and family stuff....got the wifes birthday this coming Saturday too, so I may not get much time till Sunday. I'll let you know what I find out.

The simple stuff like pulley interference or loose/missing mounting hardware isn't it. I checked that out last night.

 

Yes, I agree, Keep momma happy.

 

Hey, Jim.
On the suggestion to run the engine with the alternator unplugged but turning, a buddy of mine who's rebuilt a few alternators said don't do it cuz it'll toast the alternator....He's an R&D technoweeny, so he might just be paranoid that the trons being generated by the spinning alternator won't have anywhere to go and my alternator will die from constipation....or....badabump bing... toxic shock (pun totally intended...that was good)...thankya very much, be here all week, folks.
Is he just being screwy?

Another motorhead friend of mine agree's with your suggestion...I just want to make sure.

Tim

 

Hey, Jim.
On the suggestion to run the engine with the alternator unplugged but turning, a buddy of mine who's rebuilt a few alternators said don't do it cuz it'll toast the alternator....Tim

Won't happen.

If no current path, nothing will be generated.

You might run the engine at night and look for spark origination.

 

I agree with Everett