[68rs406]

Hi guys, this is something I have been thinking about and thought I would post up the question for discussion.

First off, no offense intended or implied to anyone so no hurt feelings...

The question:
What do you guys think the impact of crate motors has been to our hobby?

Now, of course I suppose this will have to come from guys like me that remember when there were no "crate motors", replacements yes but not what we call a crate motor today.

My opinion, crate motors have benefits to a point but have overall in general hurt the hobby.
It's way too easy to pick up a magazine and order a motor, and then pay a guy to install it. In my opinion the key part of the hobby is learning and knowing how your car works, and being a large part of the planning and assembly process. If you don't take part in assembly how can you possibly expect to keep the car maintained and operating correctly?

Granted most guys pay for machine work, etc., but it used to be you had to research what your combo would be and plan out the parts (sometimes learning the hard way what does not work). You knew how the motor was expected to work, and why, because of this. It just depended on the degree you wanted to be involved of course, but buying a crate motor was not one of the options.

With the rise of them has come lots of guys in the hobby that have no idea how thier car works. This would personally kill me, but maybe I'm in the minority.
In addition to that, crate motors have killed the local machine shop as well, and all the knowledge available from bending the engine builders ear and LEARNING about your car.

I think one of the arguements we will see is it has made the hobby more accessible to other people with otherwise no automotive knowledge, is this a good thing though?
I think there are people that should own and drive hotrods and muscle cars and maybe people that should enjoy them from a distance, I would compare it to buying a young kid his first car and picking up a Z06 Vette or a big block pro street car. Would he enjoy it? Of course. Does he have any idea how it works? Probably not (with exceptions of course). It also may end in an untimely demise of at minimum the car from not knowing or respecting the power it makes.

Maybe I'm just old school (I am by the way.. ) but it seems Crate motors have taken the learning how and doing out of our hobby, to me that is as much fun as driving the thing.

Anyway, just curious of some opinions. Discuss.....

 

[blue89bird]

I think they're great for the hobby. You shouldn't and don't have to know how to properly build an engine to engine an old car or drive a hot rod.

I know a little about a whole lot of things. I couldn't build an engine, but I can swap a cam or intake, I can't weld on a quarter, but I can spot weld 2 panels together, etc. Am I any less deserving of having a 1st gen? I don't think so.

 

[alanrw]

It depends on the individual's skill set, access to tools and workspace as well as his interest in even taking on something of that scope. Personally, I believe if you can do a cam swap or rebuild a carb, you have the skill set, just a matter of following accepted principles. Many good books on how to rebuild an engine exist. Once the machining is done, it is pretty much careful assembly with checking along the way.

alan

 

[DjD]

Using the crate engine is just a cover to intro a classic debate that has gone on for years... Take the crate engine out of the equation and nothing changes because Machine Shops, Speed Shops and general automotive shops all over the country will be glad to build and install an engine for anyone with money.

In the begining owning a hotrod was a life style, collecting cars was a hobby for the wealthy and most folks just drove their cars to get around. Of course those three classifications could be broken down a bit further but I think that gives a general idea of things. Over time the lines started bluring, dad or grandpa had that special sports car only he drove. Racing started becoming popular, cars became more part of everyones lives... Enough of the history lesson today everyone is into everything and everyone is into cars. It's the 2nd largest single item most will ever spend money on and everyone has memories growing up that evolve around a car or cars.

Nobody can say what is right or wrong as far as who owns and collects these old cars. Someone might enjoy wrenching on these old classics and has built his car from the ground up and the guy next to him at the cruise-in might have never changed his own oil or even put air in tires before. There is no way to say which one gets more enjoyment out of their car... Others will relate to one or the other more based on personal experiences but no one has the right to judge them...

Everyone is different, maybe one guy hang glides and another plays chess, does one have a fuller, richer life then the other? It's not for anyone to say, put the 2 in the same room and they will bore each other to death with their stories but one is no better than the other, just different. Same with hobbiests and these old cars...

Sean what would you do if everything you do in life was regulated the way you suggest owning and enjoying old classics should be! I don't think that is the way of life anyone of us would want to live, do you?

 

[68rs406]

I'll post a more detailed reply because I'm at work, but all good points.

Keep in mind guys, re read lines 1 and 2 of my post, no hurt feelings I was just looking for discussion.

Sean what would you do if everything you do in life was regulated the way you suggest owning and enjoying old classics should be! I don't think that is the way of life anyone of us would want to live, do you?

Easy Dennis, see lines one and two..
This is not about regulating or taking anything from anyone, I was just interested in the impact the crate motor had on the hobby. Thats all lets not turn it into who deserves to or does not deserve to own something please.

I also know there has always been someone willing to build and drop in a motor for anyone, but nothing like what we currently have, turn key motors plug and play.

Also, I would never expect someone to be required to do EVERYTHING or not own the car, I'm talking basic knowledge and the ability to do basic engine assemble has started to look like a lost art in lots of cases.

Again, no right or wrong, just curious on other folks thoughts on this topic (Crate motors, that is )

 

[154567]

Crate motor to me is no different than the engine that came in my car from the factory. I rebuilt my current engine. I didn't build the engine that came in the car from the factory but I drove it and modded it. I see no difference.

 

[509BBCamaro]

To answer your question, I personally am unsure if it has hurt the hobby or not. I re-read your post to clarify myself, but Ive got a good friend that enjoys the hobby, he is actually a mustang guy, but he would never build an engine. Its just not in his interest. He is extremely knowledgable about the car, but really just enjoys driving it. I myself enjoy building the engines, but lets be honest, today with big horsepower so readily available, these "crate shops" can build me an extremely stout shortblock with a warranty. I am happy with that. I think its just evolution of the hobby. Good discussion!

 

[alanrw]

The obvious advantage to a crate motor is that it has been built in a clean factory environment and typically is a quality product. That being said, a buddy of mine went thru 3 Ford motors for his Aerostar van before he got one that didn't have piston slap during the first 1000 miles (let me step out of the way before you guys start throwing harpoons at Ford ).

alan

 

[Mkelcy]

I think there's a continuum of hobbyists and that the work they personally do on their cars depends on skills, time, tools, budget and interest. I also think your focus on engines alone is misplaced.

I'm using a GMPP crate engine in my '68 build; however I also personally selected and welded in the three link rear suspension, DSE SFCs and mini-tubs; did all wiring; installed all electronics; selected and assembled the aftermarket subframe and front suspension; selected my spring rates and shocks all the way around; swapped front sway bar from the subframe manufacturer's recommendation; selected and installed the brakes and fuel system and did all the plumbing; installed the engine and transmission; etc., etc., etc.

I didn't do the body work or paint; I'm farming out the exhaust simply because of severe packaging constraints and I'll have some interior work done. But put me next to a guy who built his own engine but doesn't know camber from camenbert and we'll see who the "real" car guy is.

That said, as always, I think we need to find more commonality in our hobby - which is constantly under attack - rather than slicing and dicing it to create small opposing segments. From pro-street, to pro-touring, to the strict resto guys, to - yes - even ricers, we're all car guys who have more in common with each other than with most of the public.

Despite what I suggested above, if I were next to that guy who confused suspension geometry with a French cheese, I'd admire his car, ask him questions about his build and hopefully both of us would feel good about the interaction.

To directly answer the question, I think anything that makes the hobby more accessible to more people is good, and the more people that love, own and drive these old cars, the safer our hobby is.

 

[DjD]

I'll post a more detailed reply because I'm at work, but all good points.

Keep in mind guys, re read lines 1 and 2 of my post, no hurt feelings I was just looking for discussion.

Easy Dennis, see lines one and two..
This is not about regulating or taking anything from anyone, I was just interested in the impact the crate motor had on the hobby. Thats all lets not turn it into who deserves to or does not deserve to own something please.

Sean - I don't know where you are coming from, I'm not taking offense to anything and I am participating in the discussion and don't have hurt feelings by any of this... I based my comments on what you said and have bolded some key points and tried not to clip too much out so I'm not taking what you said out of context.

It's way too easy to pick up a magazine and order a motor, and then pay a guy to install it. In my opinion the key part of the hobby is learning and knowing how your car works, and being a large part of the planning and assembly process. If you don't take part in assembly how can you possibly expect to keep the car maintained and operating correctly?


With the rise of them has come lots of guys in the hobby that have no idea how thier car works. This would personally kill me, but maybe I'm in the minority.
In addition to that, crate motors have killed the local machine shop as well, and all the knowledge available from bending the engine builders ear and LEARNING about your car.

I think one of the arguements we will see is it has made the hobby more accessible to other people with otherwise no automotive knowledge, is this a good thing though?
I think there are people that should own and drive hotrods and muscle cars and maybe people that should enjoy them from a distance, I would compare it to buying a young kid his first car and picking up a Z06 Vette or a big block pro street car. Would he enjoy it? Of course. Does he have any idea how it works? Probably not (with exceptions of course). It also may end in an untimely demise of at minimum the car from not knowing or respecting the power it makes.

 

[SixtyAte]

Sean...I think it goes both ways. Where the local shops may be loosing work due to the Crate Motor prices and availability, It has kept the hobby going to some degree. I know many who have taken their engines to the local machine shops only to wait forever to get the work done and their motor back. With a crate motor...its ordered and at your door in a week! This is similar to the old Paint Jail thing that has been going on the last 20 years or so.

As far as learning to repair their own cars..sure its great. I do all my own work but there are those who can't , are afraid to try or just work too many hours to have the time to do it themselves. I remember growing up, a local guy I hung with got a brand spanking new 1967 Z-28 Camaro and then traded it in and got a 69 Z28 Camaro. I was laying on the ground replacing the clutch in my 66 SS Chevelle while he was looking at car mags. Some can do or care to do and others can buy or prefer to buy. As long as they keep the hobby going..its all good in my opinion.

Kev

 

[camaroman7d]

I think they're great for the hobby. You shouldn't and don't have to know how to properly build an engine to engine an old car or drive a hot rod.

I know a little about a whole lot of things. I couldn't build an engine, but I can swap a cam or intake, I can't weld on a quarter, but I can spot weld 2 panels together, etc. Am I any less deserving of having a 1st gen? I don't think so.

Why can't you build an engine or weld on a 1/4 panel? The only reason is because you have convinced yourself you can't. There is no such thing as "can't" unless you choose.

 

[camaroman7d]

Some very good points made. Also some people feeling like Sean was saying one type of car "owner" is better than another. He NEVER said that. He just offered an example and an opinion.

I get tired of hearing people say I "can't", when I was a kid I would get in trouble if the "Can't" word came out of my mouth. If I can do it so can anyone else that puts their mind to it. That is why my license plate says NO XQSSS (no excuses), if a poor kid can grow up, work hard and learn, so can anyone else (poor kid being me, back then). The main reason I CAN do my own work is because I couldn't afford to pay someone else to do it (you also never know what you're going to get when you farm things out). There is nothing worse that saving up and getting ripped off.

Ok back on the crate motor deal. I think it's just like fast food or that old pizza comercial, "go to the freezer and get the box". People want things instantly now, pick up the phone give your credit card number and the truck shows up with your engine. Most have no idea if they really got what they paid for. There is a place for crate engines and people aren't going to see it the same way. Nothing wrong with them, just not very creative. Back when if you wanted a hot street or race engine you had to build it, now you just need a credit card with enough room on it. It's about personal choice, I'm not the crate engine type of guy. The best part of owning the car is building it, figuring out what will make power and what won't etc.. (IMO)

If you have never had the feeling of driving down the road with an engine you built, you are really missing a very awesome part of the car "hobby". Every car guy should feel that at least once, even if it's rebuilding a stocker.

 

[MW67RS]

I think it is just the way everything is going now. We are all looking for something that is easier and less expensive. Why are mail order companies like Summit and Jegs so successful and have practically eliminated speed shops. They are much easier and cheaper. I think it is sad that machine shops are closing and I am sure that it is at least partly because of the ease of ordering a create engine. But that is the way it is and things are not going to change back to the way they were.

Given this I still don't worry about the knowledge base of engine building dying. There will always be people that want to do things themselves. Maybe not as many as there were in the past but they will always exist. I built my first engine recently and really enjoyed the process but understand that some wouldn't enjoy it. I am sure they enjoy things I don't.

 

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

I think the crate engine offerings by the OEM's and others have been a fantastic boon to the hobby.

Unfortunately the days of scouring over junkyards is long gone, so the parts availability isn't what it used to be in that regard.

Personally I like building my own engines and hunting down the parts. Almost always when I put up an ad or respond to one in whatever medium I usually end up learning something or finding something else, or get referred to a friend of a friend. I've actually developed quite a network for lots of car and tractor parts, and lots of shop talk along the way. You probably don't get that when buying a crate but some people only care about getting the engine and going forward. Works out for everyone, and I'm glad the OEM's figured out a way to stay in the performance market.

When I was a teen circa 1980-1986ish I spent many saturdays walking through junkyards and pulling parts or just checking out cars, always learning. Maybe I'm weird but I treasure those days and adventures.

 

[fishface]

I feel like everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. If you are not comfortable building an engine, I see nothing wrong with using a crate engine. In the ultimate goal of making our cars the best they can be, use whatever means at your disposal. A nice ride is a nice ride, reguardless of how you got it there.

 

[Steiner]

I think they have been about a thousand times better for the hobby than the big time auctions have.

 

[67RSSS]

Most certainly crate motors have changed the hobby and for the good! They provide an alternative for those hobbyists that either do not have the skills or more importantly the time! They are a great alternative as they provide combinations that work without the guesswork and come with warranty to boot in many cases. The key is researching the parts and being aware of what you are buying at the various price levels offered.

I wish we had the same free time that we had back 40yrs ago but unfortunatley that is not the case for most individuals today and the time they can put into their hobby! This is where the hobby suffers today.

Whatever makes the hobby affordable and easier for someone to get into it is a good thing. Once in they still need to maintain what they have which gets them learning that may lead to them building their own motor one day? Never the less whether you build it your self or buy it should have no bearing on the hobby and one having Fun!

The important thing to remember is that no matter what ones skill level is or poses they all share the same interest regardless of brand or make.

 

[68rs406]

I think there's a continuum of hobbyists and that the work they personally do on their cars depends on skills, time, tools, budget and interest. I also think your focus on engines alone is misplaced.

I'm using a GMPP crate engine in my '68 build; however I also personally selected and welded in the three link rear suspension, DSE SFCs and mini-tubs; did all wiring; installed all electronics; selected and assembled the aftermarket subframe and front suspension; selected my spring rates and shocks all the way around; swapped front sway bar from the subframe manufacturer's recommendation; selected and installed the brakes and fuel system and did all the plumbing; installed the engine and transmission; etc., etc., etc.

I didn't do the body work or paint; I'm farming out the exhaust simply because of severe packaging constraints and I'll have some interior work done. But put me next to a guy who built his own engine but doesn't know camber from camenbert and we'll see who the "real" car guy is.

That said, as always, I think we need to find more commonality in our hobby - which is constantly under attack - rather than slicing and dicing it to create small opposing segments. From pro-street, to pro-touring, to the strict resto guys, to - yes - even ricers, we're all car guys who have more in common with each other than with most of the public.

Despite what I suggested above, if I were next to that guy who confused suspension geometry with a French cheese, I'd admire his car, ask him questions about his build and hopefully both of us would feel good about the interaction.

To directly answer the question, I think anything that makes the hobby more accessible to more people is good, and the more people that love, own and drive these old cars, the safer our hobby is.

Mike,
I appreciate the input but I must not have been clear on the question entirely, I am speaking only about crate motors . I have seen the discussions regarding guys who buy thier cars done, don't know how to work on them vs. the opposite spectrum of that, and it's just a big arguement. Thats why I was trying to be specific regarding crate motors.
The last thing I would try to do is drive a wedge between car guys, we all have similar interests to some point.

 

[68rs406]

Sean - I don't know where you are coming from, I'm not taking offense to anything and I am participating in the discussion and don't have hurt feelings by any of this... I based my comments on what you said and have bolded some key points and tried not to clip too much out so I'm not taking what you said out of context.

No big deal Dennis, my point is all I asked was regarding specifically crate motors, nothinge else, because people tend to turn the "did you build it yourself" topic into a huge peeing match. By your reply it seemed like you took it as though I was condemning guys that didn't work on cars, which is not the case.
The bolded stuff you attached are my reasons why I am not a fan of crate motors, thats all.
Maybe I was not entirely clear, but i'm talking crate motors here only. It's all good, some good points have been made on both sides. Thats why I asked!